Where Did the Idea That Liberal = Communist Come From?

I have a small nit pick with this argument. I should say that I agree with the principle that religion should be kept to private property. Many liberal policies, however, also seek to increase the number of non private property. That is, they seek to increase the functions of government. As I’v said before, equating them with comunism misses essential characteristics of both philosophies. But as far as assigning tendencies of communism or socialism to liberalism goes, including this tendency to want religion removed from public spaces as an example of “anti religiousness” is not too far fetched.

That was horribly unclear. Let me summarize. IF you believe that liberals want to increase the functions of government. IF you believe that liberals want to remove religion from the properties used for these functions. THEN a characterization of the anti religious liberal has some validity.

I really hate the seperation of church and state debate. It makes me admit I am an athiest who believes in school prayer. Very sad. :frowning:

Well, I hate to disappoint you but a flat tax will only lower that percentage to ~43% since that is their share of the income (AGI). Of course, if we institute a flat tax and don’t reform state taxes (or other federal taxes if you aren’t including them) then what you will end up with is a regressive tax structure where the rich pay a smaller percentage of their income in taxes than the poor do. How you would justify that, I don’t know.

As for vilifying the rich, you clearly weren’t around a year or two ago when we were arguing a lot about the estate tax and I was trotting out arguments from Warren Buffet, Bill Gates Sr., and other folks associated with Responsible Wealth. I mean I admit that we liberals might sound a bit anti-rich when we argue against public policies that mainly benefit them but that ain’t nothing compared the vitriol that a few people on the Right seemed to express for rich people who also happened to have left-wing views in regards to tax policy and such!

I’m curious to know where you got that figure from. And I don’t mean that in a, I think that you’re full of BS, type way, I’m just genuinely curious.

How do you get a regressive tax out of a flat tax? With a flat tax, you would still have a system of paying more taxes the more that you make.

I was around, but I guess I missed out on the debate.

No, what makes you guys sound anti-rich is when you take things that don’t mainly benefit the rich, and say that they do. For example, if I didn’t mention it allready, calling basically all republican tax cuts, tax cuts for the rich, and then justifying it by using a low standard for what constitutes being rich. Also, Democrats and Liberals seem to allways have the opinion that the rich are never paying their fair share and that they should pay more.

Bolding mine, obviously. Yes, a few on the right have expressed vitriol for rich left wingers. But that’s only a few, not the majority.

As to the OP, one point that hasn’t been brought up to date is that liberal equating with conservative is the result of a successful propaganda campaign by conservatives. Since the 1980s some conservatives have deliberately attacked liberalism as being essentially communism. The reason some people equate liberalism with communism is that conservative ideologues and conservative media have consciously and deliberately pushed this notion. That’s why most politicians to the left of center identify themselves as progressives – the conservative propaganda campaign has been very effective.

Progressive is more accurate anyway. Liberal’s dictionary meaning is a lot closer to libertarianism.

Obviously, most American “liberals” are not socialists or communists, since they favor democracy and the free market, albeit a heavily regulated free market. Progressive or social democrat fits a lot better than liberal.

See the “Adjusted Gross Income Shares” table here. (By the way, The Tax Foundation is actually a right-of-center group, as is apparent from their commentary page. But, this page of tables is basically direct from the IRS, and as far as I can tell, quite reliable.)

My statement was that the flat tax alone would be neither progressive or regressive. (Well, a truly flat tax would be anyway…Depending on what sort of standard deduction you put in, you can make a “flat tax” progressive, at least to some degree.) However, if you don’t reform federal payroll taxes and state and local taxes at the same time that you put in a flat tax to replace the federal income tax, then the overall tax structure would be regressive. (Again, that is definitely true only for a true “flat tax” with no deduction.)

However, I also have the feeling from your statement here that you may not understand the definitions of “progressive”, “neutral” or “flat”, and “regressive” in regards to taxation. A tax is neutral or flat if it takes the same percentage of income from all people. If it takes a higher percentage from wealthier people then it is progressive. If it takes a higher percentage from poorer people then it is regressive. Note that the definitions are in terms of percentages and not absolute dollar amounts.

Well, when you have about 40 cents on the dollar going to the top 1% of income earners, then I think it is not too incorrect to say the tax cut mainly benefits the rich. When you add in issues of state and local taxes being simultaneously raised while the federal income tax is lowered (in a development that I would argue is not entirely unrelated to the federal income tax being lowered in preference to doing other things with the money like helping states financially meet some of the federally-mandated spending) and also consider what government services seem most likely to go on the chopping block, then I think one is quite safe in claiming that most of the net benefits will accrue to the rich.

This does not mean that they are anti-rich. While I don’t consider myself rich, I am quite well-off and I include myself among the class of people who I don’t believe need to have their taxes cut. In fact, there are many cases in which I would support a tax increase on myself (and I certainly support the repeal of the Bush tax cut on myself). By your logic, I suppose this would make me a self-hating “well off” person. Bill Gates Sr., Edward Kennedy, and many of the Democratic candidates (Kerry for sure) would safely fall into the category of self-hating very-rich people. I choose to see these people as enlightened rather than self-hating.

But those lawsuits were necessary because school administrators were unfamiliar with the limits of the separation of church and state and were unwilling to accept that it is perfectly within the bounds of the Constitution for religious student groups to use the school if secular student groups could. Liberals should not be tarred with the brush brush of religious intolerance because some school administrators of unknown politics erred on the side of overcaution because they are ignorant and stubborn.

pervert:

I don’t think liberals want to increase the size and functions of government purely for the sake of it. Rather, it’s the Right’s way of characterizing the sum total of liberal polices over the course of the 60’s and 70’s. Lately liberals have just been holding the line against the Right’s efforts to privatize everything or cut their funding. I can’t think of a lot of examples of liberal-led government taking over the property of private institutions, let alone with the intent or effect of eliminating religious expression therein. (OTOH, the Catholic Church has been taking over hospitals and eliminating abortion services). I think your point is too much of a stretch.

I will say that liberals have a lesser regard for religion since liberalism is about re-thinking our values from a more intellectial point of view. Religion is bound to lose a few credibility points. And the fact that many religious folks have made themselves out to be unholy busybodies doesn’t help.

Though this doesn’t apply to modern American political labels, the actual, ‘dictionary’ definitions of ‘liberal’ and ‘conservative’ can be quite instructive. ‘Liberal’ originally referred to someone who believed in freedom (hence ‘liberal,’ from ‘liberty’), limited government action, challenging the status quo, and rationalism. ‘Convervative’ meant someone interested in preserving the status quo and the power of the elites; rather than taking a specific stand on government action in general, it would support government action just so far as the government perpetuated the status quo. Thus, at the far ‘liberal’ end of the spectrum, you have radical libertarians, like me, who doubt the usefulness of government at all (I accept police/army/court as necessary, but don’t like it and consider the whole idea at best questionable, ethically). On the far conservative side you have a group much harder to classify in modern American politics. Originally those who supported the king and landed elite, they’re now those who support keeping wealth where it is (protecting people who are already wealthy, hindering others from becoming wealthy) or wish to impose some form of social mores (whether the social mores of believing in God or the social mores of charity. Without rendering judgment on the desirability of either, or the extent to which they’re advocated, promoting either would be an example of trying to maintain a traditional social structure). As best as I can tell, under these definitions, both major parties are fairly conservative; socialism and communism can be either but tend towards conservatism. Reasons (once again, I’ll try to classify positions without judging; but I am libertarian, and can’t divorce that entirely from my tone):

Democrats and Republicans are wealth-wise conservative in different ways, but both exhibit it (they also have a liberal side, of course; private property, individual rights, social mobility. As such, they’re more middle-of-the-road than a true conservative position, which really doesn’t exist in America. To find one, look at feudalism, absolute monarchy, or theocracy). Both support licensing of certain industries/businesses, for instance; this preserves the position of those already in the industry and protects them from new competition and fresh blood. Similarly, trade protectionism protects domestic industry from foreign competition. Republicans obviously try to uphold traditional social mores with regard to family, God and country; Democrats, less obviously, tend to enforce traditional morals like a belief in the justice and necessity of charity. Also, both parties favor special protections for certain minority groups. This is easy to point to for Democrats (racial, gender, sexuality, etc.); it’s less obvious for Republicans, but owners of major businesses and their heirs are certainly in the minority. All of these protections allocate to the protected a certain social place protected by law. Breaks to business (which are supported by both sides, though more by Republicans–agricultural subsidies over the last half-century have been bipartisan) allow old businesses to continue in prosperity, and racial protections (at this point–they may have been liberal when first envisioned) preserve the protected status of minorities. Finally, trade regulation was a hugely conservative idea. The ICC–the first major federal regulation–took off, not when populist farmers advocated it, but when the railroad bureaus jumped in. The railroad barons realized that a regulatory bureau could be used to squash newcomers and preserve their status. Once the ICC was set up, the populist reformers moved on; the railroaders got control, and they’ve used the committee to restrict and limit new forms of competition (airplanes and trucks, mainly) ever since. The original idea was to crush the railroad monopoly; when technology arrived that would do that naturally, the railroads could protect themselves through that regulatory agent. Finally–as Milton Friedman pointed out in Capitalism and Freedom, much to my amusement, a progressive income tax is generally a conservative force. It doesn’t tax people with more money–it taxes people with more income. Thus, it makes it harder for Steve Jobs or Warren Buffet to earn his fortune, but doesn’t prevent a Hearst from hanging on to his. It doesn’t destroy the fortunes of the already-rich, but it makes it harder to join their company.

Socialism: certainly can be used to promote liberalism, but is usually a conservative force. Most of the ideas I covered above apply to socialism, only more so–regulatory boards make it harder to challenge old businesses, government control makes it harder to challenge established order. Socialism tends to add a few additional troubles, though; first, because the government is the only source of employment, it’s hard to contradict it. It would have to be an incredibly principled government that would give a nice, cushy job to someone who opposed that government; even if it did, there’s still not a significant amount of money lying around to fund radical movements. If the government chooses to fund radical movements, it will be faced with a number of them that no one cares about, but that are founded because the founder wants governmental monies. In a free-market system, concentrations of wealth exist apart from the government, and can fund opposition groups and ideals; it seems there’s no idea so radical or ridiculous it can’t find some funding somewhere. Further, though socialism may appear to destroy class by eliminating wealth, it usually replaces one class with another. Travel writer and political humorist PJ O’Rourke noted in socialist Sweden that even when people had similar incomes, perks differentiated classes: who gets the corner office? Who gets the trips to conferences? Who gets the trip to the week-long Pan-European Conference of Something-Or-Other and stay in the hotel resort (not that all conferences are worthless and held in hotel resorts, only that those that are can be used as incentives. We send the flunkies to the hell weeks). Thus socialism maintains class even when it appears not to. Finally, this type of class is harder to challenge. In capitalism, someone always has the potential to change class either by coming up with a great idea that makes tons of money, or paying for a lot of stupid ones that bleed money. Under socialism, people are less vulnerable to the market, and more likely to stay where they were at birth. Still socialism embraces liberal ideals in concept–freedom of individuals, individual rights, and a rationalistic government–and its appeal is mostly founded on liberal ideas.

Communism: Maybe the most complicated. Communism was created as a liberal philosophy, a revolt against stable families of ‘old money.’ By eliminating money, Communism says, we create a system where all are free to pursue their own good, and no one is held back by wealth or class. In this sense, communism is liberal. I’ve heard allegations (link to big article expousing same ideas I propose here) that Lenin returned to the Soviet Union to try to reclaim the liberal side of Communism, and would have implemented a fairly capitalist economy had he lived. However, Communism can also exist as a conservative force. The main concern of Stalin’s regime was self-maintnance: Stalin had power, and his system was designed to keep it for himself. Thus, Communism as it was actually practiced in the USSR was quite conservative. It created a regime of oppression, unlimited government, and tyrrany, and perpetuated this regime through force and propaganda. Communism can ideologically lean liberal, but is generally implemented conservatively.

Cute argument but I think it may be largely specious for a variety of reasons:

(1) The big thing about money is that it is much easier to earn it if you already have it. Most wealthy people get most of their income from investments (look at GW Bush’s tax returns…although I have to admit that the ones I saw were from healthier times in the stock market before he actually became President). Of course, if you do get rid of taxes on investment income and get rid of the estate tax, you are going a long way in this direction of totally laying off of taxing the wealth, as well as further income generated from it, but otherwise you are not.

(2) Unless the marginal tax rates get a lot higher, I fail to see how it does much to inhibit people from becoming rich. Maybe in the days when there were marginal rates up to 90%…But, in those days there were apparently a lot of loopholes too.

(3) As a point of record, I would claim those who support more progressive taxes on income almost always support the estate tax and those who support less progressive taxes on income almost always don’t. So, those identified as “conservative” are opposing the taxation of accumulated wealth in addition to the taxation of high incomes.

Jshore, all you say is true, but doesn’t affect the core argument, though it certainly helps protect current political parties from a certain amount of blame. (1) is true, but doesn’t really mean much. I’ll gladly grant that a high income tax rate hurts people who are rich already. But it doesn’t make them less rich, only inhibits their becoming more so. It’s a tax on further earned wealth, and on interest on the original wealth, but the chunk that’s just sitting in the bank isn’t affected at all. People with large amounts of money but low incomes (heirs, retired persons who saved up) aren’t affected much by high income taxes. People with high incomes and low savings, on the other hand, are harder hit. These are the people who are currently working and achieving things, people trying to move up in the world. Thus, to a certain extent high tax rates are stabilizing because they make it much harder to acquire wealth, but not much harder to retain wealth already gained (taxes on investment income aren’t over 100%, so something’s left over. The tax on its own won’t eat into savings).

(2) only mitigates the argument in terms of current political reality. Sure, it would be harder to acquire wealth if the tax rate were raised; it would be easier if the rate were lowered. A small income tax makes it slightly harder to accumulate wealth, and is a slight stabilizing influence. A high income tax makes it much harder to accumulate wealth, and is a strong stabilizing influence. A 100% income tax makes it impossible to accumulate wealth, and represents a huge stabilization (if you ignore social upheval from people no longer having incentive to work; that’s a completely different argument, has nothing to do with this topic, and no one advocates that anyway). You simply point out we’re pursuing a moderate policy, which is true; Democrats and Republicans aren’t incredibly conservative. Our income tax is only somewhat conservative; it’s still a somewhat conservative influence.

(3) is totally true, but doesn’t bear on the question of whether income taxes are conservative ( I assume you’re talking in your post about Democrats and Republicans. One party is more liberal on some issues, the other on others. I was just pointing out one conservative policy they both support to some degree). Inheritance taxes are a mix between conservatism and liberalism. They’re liberal in trying to ‘level the playing field’ and ‘challenge the status quo.’ They’re illiberal, and thus, I suppose, conservative, in granting more power to the government (a liberal ideal is individual rights–in this case, the individual’s right to decide what to do with his money. Another liberal ideal is limited government. We tend to pursue, in actuality, a confused course, sometimes very liberal, sometimes very conservative, sometimes using conservative methods toward liberal goals). The income tax, on the other hand, is wholly conservative, if you disregard the possible liberality of the way it’s spent. I think the main reason Democrats and Conservatives disagree on this issue has more to do with perspective on government size than on the limitation of wealth accumulation; thus, the Democrats want to expand certain programs and pay with taxes, whether they’re inheritance taxes or income taxes.

Finally, I forgot to include the link I promised in my last post, so here it is: Article on the History of ‘liberal.’ It’s written by a radical libertarian (and liberal, in these definitions) historian who chronicles the history of the liberal ideal. Interesting reading–at least to me.

I posted a reply earlier, but I see that the hamsters ate it, so I’ll try again. There’s only three points I felt like replying to.
First:

Thanks for the link.

Second:

Before I accuse you of insulting my intelligence, I’ll just assume that you misunderstood what I said and try to restate it more clearly.
With a flat tax, even though the percentage is the same, it’s still a system of, the more you make, the more you pay. Pretend for the sake of this argument that a 20% flat tax is used. 20% of $20,000 will still be less than 20% of $50,000. Even though the percentage would be the same, you would still pay more in taxes the more that you made.

And third:

OK, it appears to me that you’re putting words in my mouth. Thanks.
I don’t think that well off people who want higher taxes are self hating, I just think that their ideology is incorrect.
And what the hell is so enlightening about wanting higher taxes? And does that mean that there’s something wrong with people who want lower taxes? We’re unenlightened then?
See, this is what I mean about most Liberals turning to the government as the answer most of life’s problems.
If you feel that not enough poor, disabled, or otherwise needy people aren’t getting the food, clothing, shelter, etc… that they deserve, there are private charities you can give to.
This doesn’t mean, however, that I’m against government programs to help people who can’t help themselves.

You do make an excellent point about the political affiliation of the school administrators being unknown, and I try not to paint all Liberals with a broad brush stroke of religious intolerance. I apologize if I gave you that impression.

Yes, this is true, but what I was responding to was your statement:

I don’t know how to read this statement other than as implicitly expressing the idea that a tax can’t be regressive if higher-earning people pay more dollars taxes than lower-earning people. This is not true. (And, a tax where everyone paid the same dollar amount would be very regressive indeed!)

Well, obviously enlightenment is in the eyes of the beholder. But, if you want to know the sense in which I behold enlightenment, try these two attitudes on for size:

Warren Buffett, Bill Gates Sr., etc. (paraphrasing): I managed to make a lot of money because society has been very good to me, providing me with lots of benefits and rewarding me very highly for the talents that I have. Thus, I owe a lot back to that society and have no problem with progressive taxation and estate taxes.

Dick Cheney: “…And the government had nothing to do with it.”

I consider one of these attitudes to be very enlightened and the other to be very unenlightened. It doesn’t have to do with “wanting higher taxes” so much as it has to due with acknowledging one’s debt to society and not having an exaggerated sense of one’s own self-importance and self-worth just because one has a high net worth.

I believe that if you feel that you owe a certain amount of money to society, then go ahead, pay it. Give to your favorite charities, pay people directly, support certain buisnesses and organizations. That’s a wonderful thing. But by wanting higher taxes, you’re forcing others to pay as well. It is a lot more nobel and enlightened to willing pay yourself, than it is to force others to pay.
Also, how much do you think that government contributes to peoples success? Say I started my own buisness. I would have to pay for permits, licences, etc. The government would tax the profits that I made and the income that I would pay my employees. So far, this seems to have nothing to do with contributing to my success. Yes, there may be government loans that I could probably get, but other then paying them back, what else would I owe the government for?

should read

A great deal.

The government created or is a primary force behind the stable social fabric, the social safety network, the services in terms of police and fire protection, the stable currency, the general prosperity, the defense from foreign invasion, the roads and utilities, and the education that made it possible for your business to exist and succeed. And those are just some of the more obvious and tangible things the government provides.

Moving to a flat tax would be a highly regressive move, because it would throw massive tax burdens on the poor and lower middle class, who cannot afford to pay them.

Someone making $20,000 cannot afford to pay $4,000 in federal income tax. That would be a crushing burden.

Though, a person making $2,000,000 could pay his $400,000 without batting an eye.

So what a flat tax does is make life much harder on the poor, and much easier on the rich: ie, transferring hardship to those who can’t bear it from those who were never really all that burdened in the first place.

The fact of the matter is that taxes should be paid by those who can afford to pay them, and the burdened should be balanced so that it falls on those who won’t be cast into poverty by a high tax burden.

The rich already get a pretty much free ride on Medicare taxes. Funny, you don’t hear wealthy folks trying to get those taxes made “flat.”

When Steve Forbes was running for president I figured out what my taxes would be under his flat tax program. Twice what I actually paid.

Folks at our end of the financial spectrum should do some simple arithmetic before they get on board with any idea pushed by folks at the other end.

I think the idea originally came from the liberal proclivity toward large government and advocacy of wealth redistribution (i.e., heavy taxation and expenditures on public welfare). Wealth redistribution is a core principle of Marxism. But nowadays, there isn’t a dime’s worth of difference between liberals and conservatives in that regard. The Bush administration has busted all the spending records and has add a whole new cabinet level department. (As did Nixon).