# Where did the idea that Native Americans = Hippies come from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 4, 2010, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439 "2010-11-04T11:07:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/1 "2010-11-04T11:07:52Z")
Native Americans (Indians) had territory, whaled, hunted animals to extinction, had wars, and overall had a negative effect on their environment (AFAIU). Yet for a long time there was this idea put around that they were tree-huggers who lived at peace with nature till the White Man came along and shot up Eden. Where did this come from? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/2 "2010-11-04T11:13:56Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > Yet for a long time there was this idea put around that they were tree-huggers who lived at peace with nature till the White Man came along and shot up Eden. For a long time? The idea is still commonplace today. I would go so far as to say that it is the prevalent view of Indians. > [@](#): > > Where did this come from? [More than you could want to know.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/3 "2010-11-04T12:06:17Z")
Noble savages, maybe. At least some of them. Hippies? Not remotely similar in my mind, although Navajos and Hopis have an attitude toward competitive activities similar to the hippie ethic. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/4 "2010-11-04T12:14:10Z")
I don’t recall ever seeing any Native Americans at the 37 Grateful Dead concerts I was at.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/5 "2010-11-04T12:49:22Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > I don’t recall ever seeing any Native Americans at the 37 Grateful Dead concerts I was at.🙂 You just didn’t _see_ them. Those Noble Savage types are masters of stealth, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/6 "2010-11-04T15:42:21Z")
Something that doesn’t get talked about very much is that the image of Indians in the movies started to change in the 1950s. True, the images of Indians were all over the place earlier in the century, but for the most part Indians were either generic bad guys who existed solely to give cowboys something to shoot or inferior grunting sidekicks, who might have been as nice as Tonto, but who had no history or culture of their own. Fifties’ movies slowly bought into the idea that their was something more to Indians than savages who scalped people. I think this was part of the larger image change forced by WWII as a reaction to Nazi inferiority theories. Also, there weren’t really any Indians around to make demands to integrate, like those pesky Negroes. They were a safe minority to praise. Westerns were the dominant type of dramatic tv in the 50s, which slowed down the change, because 50s tv was incredibly retro. It brought back vaudeville, for Pete’s sakes. By the end of the 60s, though, westerns were almost finished as popular programming. The tiny number of super-hard-core hippies, the ones the press loved to write about although they were in no way representative, had a vision of pre-corporate America that included living off the land and being one with it and the universe. This seemed to accord with Native American religions and presumed practices. Hippies weren’t big on research and the Dope wasn’t around. The backlash against Indians as scalpers hit at just the right time to turn them into ecological symbols. [They cried at pollution and littering](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4ozVMxzNAA) [YouTube link]. It was just as false as the previous version but a heck of a lot nicer and more useful politically. The years since have seen Indians trying to regain public awareness of their true histories, cultures, and diversities. But that’s too much like school. Much easier to tag them with one simple identifier. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/7 "2010-11-04T15:56:03Z")
Right. The one thing a Native American absolutely cannot be is a human being. No, they are symbols. They can be savages, bogeymen, sidekicks, souls to be saved, proto-hippies, victims, or whatever. But the important thing about them is what function they serve in white people’s psychology. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/8 "2010-11-04T16:04:50Z")
Blame Chief Seattle. [Or not…](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Seattle#The_Speech_controversy) ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/9 "2010-11-04T16:36:40Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Right. The one thing a Native American absolutely cannot be is a human being. No, they are symbols. They can be savages, bogeymen, sidekicks, souls to be saved, proto-hippies, victims, or whatever. But the important thing about them is what function they serve in white people’s psychology. The OP \*asked \*about the symbolic use of Native Americans. Of course it’s bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/10 "2010-11-04T16:49:54Z")
The crying Indian commercial may have affected public perception. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/11 "2010-11-04T16:59:25Z")
Oh hell, guys, this idea goes back to before the United States. The “noble savage” concept dates back to at least the early seventeenth century, and possibly before. From the moment Europeans started encountering Amerindian people, you had folks who thought of Amerindians are subhuman, and you also had folks who used them as a symbol of people who weren’t like the evil bastards who lived in Europe. The precise nature of the noble savage has changed over time, but it’s always been an imaginary person/society that doesn’t have whatever nasty habits Western society is alleged to have at the time. So today, it’s that they don’t wreck the environment. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/12 "2010-11-04T17:03:31Z")
The irony is, the crying Indian was a fake. Iron Eyes Cody was an Italian that made a good living playing Indians. > **[Iron Eyes Cody](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Eyes_Cody)** > > Iron Eyes Cody (born Espera Oscar de Corti, April 3, 1904 – January 4, 1999) was an American actor who portrayed Native Americans in Hollywood films, including the role of Chief Iron Eyes in Bob Hope's The Paleface (1948). He also played a Native American shedding a tear about pollution in one of the country's most well-known television public service announcements from the group Keep America Beautiful. Living in Hollywood, he began to insist, even in his private life, that he was Native Am Co... > [@](#): > > Cody was born as Espera Oscar de Corti in Kaplan, Louisiana, a son of Antonio de Corti and his wife, Francesca Salpietra, immigrants from Sicily, Italy. They had a local grocery store in Gueydan, Louisiana, where he was raised. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/13 "2010-11-04T17:04:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Blame Chief Seattle. [Or not…](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Seattle#The_Speech_controversy) The actual speech, so far as it was recorded about thirty years later, was, briefly paraphrased: > [@](#): > > Wow, you whites kicked our asses. We’re pretty much extinct as a people now, and the young people are pissed off and want revenge. But that would be stupid, because you whites would wipe us out. The President says if we sign the treaty and listen to him, he’ll send the army to protect us from the Simsiams and Hydas [enemies of the Duwamish]. I hope that’s true, and that we can be friends and brothers, but I doubt it, because we worship really different gods, and your god doesn’t really seem to like us much, and is kind of a dick. > > Nevertheless, I think we’ll accept the treaty, go to the reservation, and hope we can live in peace. Our tribe is going to be extinct soon, and I guess it doesn’t matter so much where we are when we all go extinct. I think that’s true of all the Indian tribes. We used to be as numerous as you are, and all over the continent, but you’ve taken our land, attacked us, and doomed us, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there aren’t any more Indians at all very soon. Thinking about all this, though, I’m not really upset about it. Tribes aren’t anything more than a group of people, and it’s the destiny of mankind to die and be forgotten. That’s true of whites as much as Indians, so maybe we’re brothers in that at least. > > We’ll consider the treaty and let you know our decision. But I’ll tell you know, if we do accept, one of our conditions will be that we’re allowed to visit the graves of our dead. This land is sacred to us, because every part of it is filled with some shared joy or tragedy from the past of our people. The ashes of the dead make up the dirt under our feet, and the spirits of the dead, even the ones long forgotten, still roam the land. Even when we’re all extinct, and the Indian is just a myth to you, when you white men think yourself alone in your fields and your shops, the spirits of our dead will be there. You’ll never be alone. So, deal justly with my people, because our dead aren’t entirely powerless. The original version of the speech as recorded is actually a lot better than the 1970s tv version (and certainly better than my brief summary), and worth reading. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/14 "2010-11-04T17:09:13Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > Native Americans (Indians) had territory, whaled, hunted animals to extinction, had wars, and overall had a negative effect on their environment (AFAIU). Name one large land mammal the natives hunted to extinction. Mind you, your basic point is right. Amerinds were perfectly capable of hunting to excess and waste. Some tribes faiths did seem to go along with the “freind of the earth” idea, but that seems to be more of an exception, not a rule. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/15 "2010-11-04T17:16:01Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The actual speech, so far as it was recorded about thirty years later, was, briefly paraphrased: > > The original version of the speech as recorded is actually a lot better than the 1970s tv version (and certainly better than my brief summary), and worth reading. False (wiki): "\*There is a controversy about a speech by Si’ahl concerning the concession of native lands to the settlers. Even the date and location of the speech has been disputed,[8] but the most common version is that on March 11, 1854, Si’ahl gave a speech at a large outdoor gathering in Seattle. The meeting had been called by Governor Isaac Ingalls Stevens to discuss the surrender or sale of native land to white settlers. Doc Maynard introduced Stevens, who then briefly explained his mission, which was already well understood by all present.[3] Si’ahl then rose to speak. He rested his hand upon the head of the much smaller Stevens, and declaimed with great dignity for an extended period. No one alive today knows what he said; he spoke in the Lushootseed language, and someone translated his words into Chinook jargon, and a third person translated that into English. Some years later, Dr. Henry A. Smith wrote down an English version of the speech, based on Smith’s notes. It was a flowery text in which Si’ahl purportedly thanked the white people for their generosity, demanded that any treaty guarantee access to Native burial grounds, and made a contrast between the God of the white people and that of his own. Smith noted that he had recorded “…but a fragment of his [Sealth’s] speech”. Recent scholarship questions the authenticity of Smith’s supposed translation."\* Let me repeat that " **No one alive today knows what he said.."** However, the translated speech- even given doubts as to the translators skill- is not anything close to what is posted here. ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_Doubt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Angel\_of\_Doubt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_Doubt)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/16 "2010-11-04T17:17:54Z")
I always linked it, as TriPolar and the Chief Seattle thing has, to the environmentalism movement of the, what, late 60’s and 70s? Perhaps NA’s were epitomized as “proof” man could live in harmony with nature, a phrase, which IIRC was thrown around quite a bit at the time. The Noble Savage archetype must certainly bear heavily on that phenomenon also. Just my opinion. I find it a bit ironic that in later years NA’s have complained of non-NA woo-woo types performing ceremonies or whatnot around NA sites, and then we have such examples as the use of sweat lodges in self-actualization retreats, as in the deaths that were in the news recently. You should hear my history professor fiance lecture about the torture methods they used. Wow. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/17 "2010-11-04T17:18:54Z")
I recall reading the Buffalo herds were thinning before the Europeans arrived. I’m not sure if they were near extinction. But, the thinning herds were responsible for wars between tribes. The Europeans made the situation a hundred times worse. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/18 "2010-11-04T17:20:52Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The irony is, the crying Indian was a fake. Iron Eyes Cody was an Italian that made a good living playing Indians. > [Iron Eyes Cody - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Eyes_Cody) Not quite a fake- he married a native American, lived his life as a Indian, adopted Indian children, and was honored by the Native American community. In fact, I had heard one tribe “adopted” him, which could make him legally a Native American. (“Native American” is the only ethnic lable which has a legal defintion under uS Law, but each Tribe may decide who is or is not a Member. Some Tribe’s laws allow for adoptions or marrying into a tribe as being a “legal Tribe member”) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/19 "2010-11-04T17:30:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Let me repeat that " **No one alive today knows what he said.."** However, the translated speech- even given doubts as to the translators skill- is not anything close to what is posted here. I used the translated Smith speech as a template for my paraphrase. I think I got all the highlights…Seattle wants peace, US President promises protection, different gods, white god hates Indians, American expansion wiping out Indians, death common legacy of mankind, demand that they be allowed to visit burial grounds, land haunted by Duwamish ghosts, treat the Duwamish fairly or the ghosts will take revenge. You didn’t think that what I quoted was the actual translation of the speech, right? I mean, I did make clear that I was paraphrasing. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439/20 "2010-11-04T17:48:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Name one large land mammal the natives hunted to extinction. Some paleontologists believe the mammoth (or possibly mastodon, sorry about my memory) was hunted to extinction. I attended a talk by a professor using data from Michigan to show that the extinction there was not natural. I agree that the topic is “hotly” debated as all the popsci reports have it. [Here’s a neutral perspective](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/voorhies-paleontology.html). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-that-native-americans-hippies-come-from/559439.md?page=2)