# Where Did The Practice Of Sucking The Bloody Penis After Circumcising It Originate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 28, 2004, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-practice-of-sucking-the-bloody-penis-after-circumcising-it-originate/266489 "2004-09-28T15:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WeRSauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f19dbf/32.png) [@WeRSauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WeRSauron)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-practice-of-sucking-the-bloody-penis-after-circumcising-it-originate/266489/41 "2004-09-30T04:07:01Z")
Where did this practice come from? Probably _halachah leMosheh miSinai_ (the law of Moses from Sinai): in other worlds, Oral Torah. Whenever something’s source or purpose can not be found, it is inevitably justified by appealing to _halachah leMosheh miSinai_. This includes not only the practice under discussion but also other elements (my favorite being the rule that the _shin_ on the _tefillin shel rosh_ must have four prongs instead of the usual three). There may be many theories as to where it came from, why it exists, but these are all theories without clear answers. This is not some minor issue, though: it has to do with a core belief of Rabbinic Judaism (the dominant form of Judaism: other forms include Karaite Judaism, Samaritan “Judaism,” and maybe Falasha Judaism). This is expressed most succinctly by the Mishna: > [@](#): > > “Moses/Mosheh received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua/Yehoshua; Joshua/Yehoshua to the Elders; the Elders to the Prophets; and the Prophets transmitted it to the Men of the Great Assembly” (Chapters of the Fathers 1:1). > > (“_Mosheh qibeil Torah miSinai, umsarah lihoshua, vihoshua lizqeinim, uzqeinim linviim, unviim mesaruha le’anshei kheneset hagedolah_” (_Pirqei Avot_ 1:1).) The Men of the Great Assembly would eventually play a hand in the collection, transmission, and codification of the Oral Torah, which now exists in the Talmud. Their teachings are considered to be as authoritative as the text of the Written Torah itself, if not more so. While the Written Torah dictates, the Oral Torah fills in the (many) blanks, addressing issues that the Written Torah does not. (Rules about kashrut, mezuzot, tefillin, tefillah, Festivals, taharat hamishpachah, and so on, are all addressed by the Oral Torah.) Orthodox Jews do not question so much why such-and-such practice or rule came about. What the Torah teaches, they do. Questions may enhance their understanding and joy of the mitzvot, but finding answers is never used to base whether one will or will not obey a certain mitzvah. This is also why Orthodox Jews expect _baalei teshuvah_ (Jews returning to observance and faithfulness) and converts to, above all, accept, embrace, and obey _mesorah_ or tradition. Orthodox Jews cannot sit and ponder the wherefores of all the mitzvot, and they simply are forbidden to base their obedience or faithfulness based on such questions. They must accept, embrace, and obey _mesorah_ even if it does not make sense. These Jews believe firmly that the Above’s wisdom, intelligence, insight, and knowledge far surpasses their own: who are they to question what He has decreed (as they see it)? Modern Judaism is so based on Rabbinic Judaism that it is really futile to conjecture, within Judaism, why this practice (or others like unto it) exists, how it came about, what relation it has to the Torah and to the Jewish people, etc. This is much like the Above: it was, it is, and it will be (as long as there are _shomer Torah_ Jews). It is an inexplicable phenomenon. It would be interesting to consider this from an academic/anthropological/sociological point of view: but from a Jewish point of view, it would be very, very difficult to do so while honoring the Rabbinic tradition in the way that it deserves to be. The practice **Rufus Xavier** referred to is called _hatafat dam brit_. This involves drawing a drop of blood from the shaft, followed by immersion in a _mikvah_ or special pool of water. This has less to do with one’s Jewishness and more with complying with the Oral Torah (which implicitly implies the acceptance of Rabbinic Judaism and its structures and teachings). [hijack] Baptism was not invented by Christians: it’s a very ancient practice, and is used by Jews. Immersion is done to make oneself ritually pure. Many _frum_ Jews, male and (of course) female will make often use of the _mikvah_. Women are the usual users the _mikvah_, to fulfill requirements of _taharat hamispachah_, which is taken very seriously by male and female Orthodox Jews. Outside of very observant Jews, the _mikvah_ is used for women and for converts. The _frum_ use of the _mikvah_ reminds one of the very frequent use of the _mikvah_ by the Essene/Qumran Jews: they used it frequently to keep themselves in a state of ritual purity so that they could fight with the angels in the upcoming battle between the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness. Being holy beings, angels would not come near ritually impure people. It should be noted that ritual impurity has little to do with physical or moral cleanliness. Well, a bit with physical cleanliness. This very same idea, of ritual purity, exists in almost all religions of the world, except for Christianity (and maybe Buddhism?), and they all share uncanny resemblances and similarities. [/hijack] WRS - Not a Jew, although often He wishes He were. If We are wrong anywhere above, please correct Us. ---
**Author:** ![Lynwood\_Slim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Lynwood\_Slim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynwood_Slim)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-practice-of-sucking-the-bloody-penis-after-circumcising-it-originate/266489/42 "2004-09-30T12:07:44Z")
WeRSauron: I don’t think you are correct that > [@](#): > > Whenever something’s source or purpose can not be found, it is inevitably justified by appealing to halachah leMosheh miSinai. This includes not only the practice under discussion but also other elements (my favorite being the rule that the shin on the tefillin shel rosh must have four prongs instead of the usual three). The term is used only about 45 times in the entire Babylonian Talmud, and only about 20 times in the Jerusalem Talmud. About 1/4 of the times the term is mentioned in the Bavli, it has to do with “tefillin” by my count. The Talmud does say that all halakha goes back to Moshe at Sinai, but this statement is controverted by the Talmud itself, which uses several other sources of law – hermeneutics, deeds of sages, edicts, custom, reason (s’varah), etc. Regarding our term: One major source for circumcision in the Talmud, where metsitsa is mentioned, is Shabbat 133a-b. There is it is described a required medical practice > [@](#): > > WE SUCK OUT, etc. R. Papa said: If a surgeon does not suck [the WOUND], it is dangerous and he is dismissed. This would not be a case of _halakha le Moshe mi Sinai_, but rather of talmudic medicine, which is why most mohelim today use a glass tube to perform the ritual side, but not the medical side of the practice. My research tells me that virtual no non-Orthodox mohelim perform this practice. By the way, your translation of Pirkei Avot 1:1 is good, but contains a tiny error. The Hebrew does not say that Moshe received _the_ from Sinai – there is no definite article in the Hebrew. It should be translated either “received Torah from Sinai” or you can go ahead and translate the word Torah “received law/instruction from Sinai”, or more problematically for Orthodox Jews, "received _a_ Torah from Sinai. I would also differ with you that Orthodox Jews don’t question why such and such a practice came about: that is one of the major topics of the Talmud, and my understanding is the Orthodox Jews spend a lot of time studying just that. Post Talmudic halakhic literature, with which I have some familiarity, continues this discussion on the sources of law. ---
**Author:** ![Crandolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2004, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-practice-of-sucking-the-bloody-penis-after-circumcising-it-originate/266489/43 "2004-10-12T04:26:53Z")
A disturbing item I just came across at [newsoftheweird.com](http://newsoftheweird.com): “Writing in the journal Pediatrics (August 2004), Israeli physicians cautioned against a traditional form of circumcision in which blood is cleaned from the wound not by a suction device but by the circumciser’s taking wine into his mouth and then sucking the blood from the wound. Researchers, led by Dr. Benjamin Gesundheit of Ben-Gurion University, found eight cases of infants having developed herpes from circumcisers’ mouths. [Reuters, 8-4-04]” :eek: :eek: :eek: [link](http://www.newsoftheweird.com/archive/nw040912.html) ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2004, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-practice-of-sucking-the-bloody-penis-after-circumcising-it-originate/266489/44 "2004-10-12T04:36:20Z")
> [@Crandolph](#): > > [link](http://www.newsoftheweird.com/archive/nw040912.html) I swear, nobody ever reads [my posts](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5305415#poststop). ---
**Author:** ![Crandolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2004, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-practice-of-sucking-the-bloody-penis-after-circumcising-it-originate/266489/45 "2004-10-12T05:31:22Z")
Oops, sorry! I read this thread over a week ago, didn’t follow the link and “herpes” didn’t get stuck in my head, so when I happened across this article today it was ‘news’ to me. :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-practice-of-sucking-the-bloody-penis-after-circumcising-it-originate/266489.md?page=2)