# Where did the term "in spades" come from?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [July 6, 2007, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781 "2007-07-06T22:46:28Z")
**Posts on this page:** 19
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@xanthous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanthous)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2007, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/1 "2007-07-06T22:46:28Z")
As in “She told him off in spades.”
(weak example, I know, but I can’t come up with anything better right now than an example from teh internets)
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### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2007, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/2 "2007-07-06T23:20:34Z")
The earliest I can find is cited in the OED.
> [@](#):
>
> 1929 D. RUNYON in Hearst’s International Oct. 62/2, I always hear the same thing about every bum on Broadway, male and female, including some I know are bums, in spades, right from taw.
. I’m sure it’s American. But I haven’t been able to find anything earlier.
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### Author:  [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2007, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/3 "2007-07-06T23:34:01Z")
I would suspect it started off as a straight playing card metaphor - spades the suit, often ranked as the highest and the best, for example in contract bridge. Anything in spades will out-do the same thing in another suit, (though no trump beats spades.)
That’s just a guess though.
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2007, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/4 "2007-07-07T00:03:22Z")
> [@chrisk](#):
>
> I would suspect it started off as a straight playing card metaphor - spades the suit, often ranked as the highest and the best, for example in contract bridge.
[Correct.](http://www.answers.com/topic/in-spades)
> [@](#):
>
> This expression alludes to spades as the highest-ranking suit in various card games, such as bridge, and transfers “highest” to other extremes. [Colloquial; 1920s]
Handy hint for idiom hunters: google
“[text of desired idiom]” idiom origin
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### Author:  [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2007, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/5 "2007-07-07T14:02:35Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu]
[Correct.](http://www.answers.com/topic/in-spades)
Handy hint for idiom hunters: google
“[text of desired idiom]” idiom origin
[/QUOTE]
Oh, dear me. **Kimstu** , I know you mean well, but boy oh boy, you are about to hear it from one of the people who already posted in this thread. :eek:
You do NOT demonstrate an accurate answer to word or phrase origins by citing “[Answers.com](http://Answers.com).” And you should be able to figure this out yourself by noting that that site has absolutely no attribution for its assertion of etymology. :smack:
**samclem** , who makes something of a habit in this area, has already offered the OED’s contribution to the origin of the phrase. No doubt he is off trying to ferret out some added reference to help with the question.
It should be noted that the notion of the spades suit as being dominant to all other trump suits developed fairly late; as far as I can tell, it was not until the rule for Auction Bridge were developed in 1904 that this provision was cemented. Of course, there is the game Spades, but that was invented in the 1930’s, so it hardly contributes to the development of a term in use in the 1920’s.
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### Author:  [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2007, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/6 "2007-07-07T17:32:32Z")
It would clearly come from contract bridge (not auction bridge) from the dating, which was in the middle of the big craze for the game (which started in 1925).
Spades was the most valuable suit (though hearts was equally valuable). It could have come up in several ways, from “I made a grand slam, in spades” or “We set down their contract, in spades.” Why “spades” instead of “hearts” is just how the idiom evolved (“no trump” is even more valuable, but doesn’t really work.)
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### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2007, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/7 "2007-07-07T18:59:23Z")
Spades was (almost always) the highest ranking suit not only in Contract and Auction Bridge but in Triumph, Whist, and the related trick-taking trumpiferous card games. Some auctions did not allow the naming of a suit during the auction, but some did, and where one did spades would (usually) outrank the other suits.
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### Author:  [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2007, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/8 "2007-07-07T22:08:16Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp]
Spades was (almost always) the highest ranking suit not only in Contract and Auction Bridge but in Triumph, Whist, and the related trick-taking trumpiferous card games. Some auctions did not allow the naming of a suit during the auction, but some did, and where one did spades would (usually) outrank the other suits.
[/QUOTE]
Again, not true. Whist, for example does not rank the suits, nor does Bid Whist. You cannot, for example, in bid whist, bid the same number of tricks but in a different “higher” suit; you have to go to no trump, or, in some versions, call low card wins.
I believe you will find that spades as a ranking suit greater than hearts did not exists in such trick games until Auction Bridge, as I cited. You are, of course, free to prove me wrong, in which case I will happily cry uncle. 😉
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### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2007, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/9 "2007-07-07T23:30:09Z")
Actually, I’ve been working.
Since we know that poker was a game back in the 1800’s, and no doubt many times a player had a flush, and another player had a flush in a different suit, which suit won? I just got back to the boards in the last few minutes. Maybe I’ll find the answer to my question before others.
And, yes, it’s almost too coincidental that Bridge takes off in the early 1900’s, and the phrase starts at that time.
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### Author:  [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2007, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/10 "2007-07-08T04:36:57Z")
[QUOTE=samclem]
Actually, I’ve been working.
Since we know that poker was a game back in the 1800’s, and no doubt many times a player had a flush, and another player had a flush in a different suit, which suit won? I just got back to the boards in the last few minutes. Maybe I’ll find the answer to my question before others.
And, yes, it’s almost too coincidental that Bridge takes off in the early 1900’s, and the phrase starts at that time.
[/QUOTE]
A flush is a flush is a flush, even today. Suits are not preferenced in poker.
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### Author:  [@Auntbeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Auntbeast)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2007, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/11 "2007-07-08T05:35:54Z")
Ixnay. Suits are preferenced in poker, in small ways perhaps, but they do.
A flush is a flush but a flush is rated by the cards in the flush. Such as Ace, Queen, Nine, Seven, Four, Deuce of whatever suit. Better flush is Ace, KING, Nine, Seven, Four, Deuce of another suit. If both players have an identical flush to the 5th card, it is split. The suit does not matter. However, in stud games, the low is determined by suit. The deuce of clubs is the lowest.
Many places offer jackpots if a Spade Royal flush is hit. It is considered the best hand in poker. Granted, in a pot, two royal flushes would split the pot, the person with the spades would absoutely feel like he had the superior hand, even if.
I am a fully licensed and permitted, currently working poker dealer as sanctioned by the State of Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation. (And I get the twisty seat, which makes me the boss at the table. 😛 )
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### Author:  [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2007, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/12 "2007-07-08T11:14:59Z")
[QUOTE=samclem]
The earliest I can find is cited in the OED.
. I’m sure it’s American. But I haven’t been able to find anything earlier.
[/QUOTE]
…Could have been British, first.
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### Author:  [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2007, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/13 "2007-07-09T00:20:05Z")
[QUOTE=Auntbeast]
Ixnay. Suits are preferenced in poker, in small ways perhaps, but they do.
A flush is a flush but a flush is rated by the cards in the flush. Such as Ace, Queen, Nine, Seven, Four, Deuce of whatever suit. Better flush is Ace, KING, Nine, Seven, Four, Deuce of another suit. If both players have an identical flush to the 5th card, it is split. The suit does not matter. However, in stud games, the low is determined by suit. The deuce of clubs is the lowest.
Many places offer jackpots if a Spade Royal flush is hit. It is considered the best hand in poker. Granted, in a pot, two royal flushes would split the pot, the person with the spades would absoutely feel like he had the superior hand, even if.
I am a fully licensed and permitted, currently working poker dealer as sanctioned by the State of Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation. (And I get the twisty seat, which makes me the boss at the table. 😛 )
[/QUOTE]
High-Lo split games apparently began to appear in about 1900. However, that game makes a preference not of spades, but of Clubs. And with the exception of certain propositional payoffs in casinos, no other aspect of poker is suit-preferenced. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that poker is the origin of the “in spades” phrase. 🙂
It is nice to have someone truly knowledgeable about gambling here to educate us, however! I’ll be referring you to threads where truly objectionable and/or ludicrous statments about table games get made. 😉
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### Author:  [@Auntbeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Auntbeast)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2007, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/14 "2007-07-09T04:38:39Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq]
High-Lo split games apparently began to appear in about 1900. However, that game makes a preference not of spades, but of Clubs. And with the exception of certain propositional payoffs in casinos, no other aspect of poker is suit-preferenced. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that poker is the origin of the “in spades” phrase. 🙂
It is nice to have someone truly knowledgeable about gambling here to educate us, however! I’ll be referring you to threads where truly objectionable and/or ludicrous statments about table games get made. 😉
[/QUOTE]
I only deal poker. I’m not sure what High-lo games you are referring to, but we play stud high-low and omaha high-low and there is no more suit preference in those games than I previously stated. Really what I was trying to point out was that although poker does peripherally use suits, beyond establishing a low starting hand, I’m not aware of it being any more pertinent than peoples perceptions of the spades being the highest hand.
Now how the suits are typically ranked (Spades, Hearts, Diamonds, Clubs) may have to do with what those suits were originally designed in regards to and why Spades is often perceived as the “best” suit. Maybe we should look into why they are called spades and trace back from their to figure out where the phrase “in spades” comes from.
And my post was to correct the previous posters assertion that a flush is a flush is a flush. 🙂 Not that the phrase came from poker.
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### Author:  [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2007, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/15 "2007-07-09T10:52:13Z")
Would it be gin rummy? From what I remember from playing with my grandmother, if the first card turned over at the beginning of the game were a spade, the hand would be “in spades” and the points for the hand would be doubled.
(Actually, checking Google, it looks like this is just a variation of the standard rules, but since it’s what my Gramma taught me, the standard rules are wrong!)
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### Author:  [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2007, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/16 "2007-07-09T11:17:39Z")
I am surprised that no one has mentioned pinochle in which a hand played in spades pays off double than in any other trump suit (there is no notrump). If a player who names trump (not called the declarer although that is what he, in effect, is is deciding whether to play out a hand or just concede defeat, this becomes an important consideration since he can concede in a plain suit and avoid a double loss. That doesn’t prove that it is the origin of the phrase, of course, but it is very suggestive.
Incidentally, I have the distinct impression that originally spades were the lowest ranking suit, but by the same psychological mechanism–the last shall be first–that made the ace the highest card, it got switched to the highest.
Spades are worth more both in auction and contract bridge. In auction, tricks were worth 10, 9, 8, 7, 6 points in NT, S, H, D, C, respectively and game was 30 points, which means that 3NT, 4S, 4H, 5D, 5C were needed for game. I am sure that this is what gave rise to the peculiar scoring of NT tricks. I don’t know how whist was scored but there couldn’t have been NT since a turn of the last card to be dealt determined the trump.
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### Author:  [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2007, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/17 "2007-07-09T11:30:44Z")
[QUOTE=Hari Seldon]
I am surprised that no one has mentioned pinochle in which a hand played in spades pays off double than in any other trump suit (there is no notrump). If a player who names trump (not called the declarer although that is what he, in effect, is is deciding whether to play out a hand or just concede defeat, this becomes an important consideration since he can concede in a plain suit and avoid a double loss. That doesn’t prove that it is the origin of the phrase, of course, but it is very suggestive.
Incidentally, I have the distinct impression that originally spades were the lowest ranking suit, but by the same psychological mechanism–the last shall be first–that made the ace the highest card, it got switched to the highest.
Spades are worth more both in auction and contract bridge. In auction, tricks were worth 10, 9, 8, 7, 6 points in NT, S, H, D, C, respectively and game was 30 points, which means that 3NT, 4S, 4H, 5D, 5C were needed for game. I am sure that this is what gave rise to the peculiar scoring of NT tricks. I don’t know how whist was scored but there couldn’t have been NT since a turn of the last card to be dealt determined the trump.
[/QUOTE]
First of all, so far as I know, the scoring rule you mention for pinochle is not standard. I’ve reviewed scoring rules at a couple different cites discussing the game and they make no mention of special value for spades.
Second of all, as to whist, you are forgetting Bid Whist, which I specifically mentioned; see my first post above.
**Auntbeast** , thank you. In the post I made to which you offered your corrections, my assertion that a flush is a flush was not meant to apply to anything other than flushes of the same rank in different suits. I should have been more specific. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2007, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/18 "2007-07-09T12:33:34Z")
[QUOTE=Auntbeast]
Now how the suits are typically ranked (Spades, Hearts, Diamonds, Clubs) may have to do with what those suits were originally designed in regards to and why Spades is often perceived as the “best” suit. Maybe we should look into why they are called spades and trace back from their to figure out where the phrase “in spades” comes from.
[/QUOTE]
Well, they come from the Tarot’s suits of Coins, Cups, Swords and Clubs but every tarotist I know has different opinions about whether Spades (_Picas_ or “Spears” in Spanish) correspond to the Swords or the Coins. At least they seem to agree that Cups are Hearts and Clubs are Clubs (in Spanish _Tréboles_ or Shamrocks).
The Spanish names I give are for the suits of the “French” cards 🙂 (the ones you guys use).
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### Author:  [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2007, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-term-in-spades-come-from/410781/19 "2007-07-09T13:51:31Z")
**Auntbeast** – I assume you mean that in poker suit is only ranked to determine who bets first in a stud game (where some cards are dealt face-up, and the player with the best hand showing bets first), and that suits are not ranked at showdown to decide who actually wins the hand?