# Where did the writers of the Bible learn about "lions" ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 1, 2006, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016 "2006-05-01T23:15:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2006, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/1 "2006-05-01T23:15:21Z")
In other words, when the various parts of the Testaments were being written, what animal were they thinking of when they say “lion”? As in the Lion of Judah, or when Satan is described as being a roaring lion in the book of Peter, or when Samson killed the lion (only ones I can think of at the moment.). Were there lions in the area, or was it an animal that they had heard of and it sounded impressive? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2006, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/2 "2006-05-01T23:26:23Z")
Lions used to be much more widespread. They lived in Europe and the Middle East stretching to India in historical times. There is still a very small population of lions in the Gir Forest of India. If you read Greek mythology you’ll see heroes and demigods fighting lions all through Greece. Lions weren’t exactly common, but they weren’t legendary creatures either. Lions used to live in North America, but they went extinct here much earlier with the rest of the Pleistocene megafauna. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2006, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/3 "2006-05-01T23:59:30Z")
From the [Smithsonian _National Museum of Natural History_](http://nmnhgoph.si.edu/cgi-bin/wdb/msw/names/query/12121) entry on _Panthera leo_: > [@](#): > > Distribution… :Present (except in tropical rain forests) in Botswana, Ethiopia, India, Kenya, Malawi, Mali, Mozambique, Namibia, Senegal, Somalia, South Africa, Sudan, Uganda, Zambia, and Zimbabwe. Formerly present but now extinct in Algeria, Arabia, Egypt, Greece, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Libya, Morocco, Pakistan, and Tunisia. [Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County](http://www.lam.mus.ca.us/cats/home.html), Lion _Panthera leo_: > [@](#): > > Distribution: The distribution of the lion has diminished greatly over the last 2000 years. Formerly found throughout Africa, southern Europe and east to India, lions are now confined to sub-saharan Africa and a small population in India. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/4 "2006-05-02T00:05:24Z")
Yep – think of Pyramus and Thisbe (from Shakespeare’s “A Midsummer Night’s Dream” with the threatening lion. Or Androcles and the lion. Or Hercules ith the Nemean Lio (that he made into his headpiece), r all those lions in Aesop’s fables. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/5 "2006-05-02T00:48:55Z")
Didn’t the arms of England at the time feature three golden lions? As far back as Henry VII’s time\*, foriegn leaders sent him live lions for the zoo the king kept in the Tower of London. The menagerie was a very popular attraction among Londoners, so even the commoners could see a live lion. - The time period with which I’m most familiar is the Tudor era. There might have been lions in the royal menagerie before that time. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/6 "2006-05-02T00:53:24Z")
I’ve read that the Romans killed them off in the arena, along with the elephants of North Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/7 "2006-05-02T01:27:32Z")
As far as I’m aware, the lions in Europe were already extinct in classical times, although they may have been alive recently before. The North African elephant population only died out circa 300-400 CE. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/8 "2006-05-02T01:43:48Z")
Yeah, that was the reason I asked. I thought the Romans had them shipped in from away for their games, so I assumed that was where the Christians saw them. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/9 "2006-05-02T02:32:16Z")
[European Lion (_Leo leo europaea_)](http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/faculty/heywood/geog358/extinctm/EuroLion.htm) (More recently classified as _Panthera leo europaea_, the European lion is treated as a separate species from the lion we know today, but there is not much information on it.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/10 "2006-05-02T02:34:00Z")
Wiki’s [European Lion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_lion) and redundant [Lions in Europe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lions_in_Europe) articles. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/11 "2006-05-02T02:35:38Z")
> [@Love Rhombus](#): > > Yeah, that was the reason I asked. I thought the Romans had them shipped in from away for their games, so I assumed that was where the Christians saw them. Except the examples you give in your OP (and I would add Daniel in the lions’ den) are all Old Testament references, written by the Jews centuries before there were any Christians around (or Romans, for that matter). And presumably when there were still wild lions in the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/12 "2006-05-02T02:36:53Z")
Whoops, sorry, obviously the epistles of Peter are in the New Testament. It’s getting late here… ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/13 "2006-05-02T02:57:50Z")
There are low relief sculptures from Babylon and Persia of kings and nobles hunting lions. These pre-date the Exodus (which was about 1200 BCE, I think). Surely they were known through out the Middle East. Alexander the Macedonian, the Greek hero Hercules and Roman Legion standard bearers are portrayed as wearing a lion head headdress. Lions were a pretty common motive through out the ancient world. The things on the English-British coat of arms are leopards. The confusion comes in with King Richard (the Lion Hearted) and political cartoonists using a lion to represent the Empire – like the ones at the foot of Nelson’s column in Trafalgar Square. The other things holding up the coat of arms are an Unicorn and a lion– make what you will of that. I suppose that those old imperialists though a lion (strong, bold, noisy) was a better symbol than a leopard (sneaky, treacherous, spotted). ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/14 "2006-05-02T03:02:31Z")
There was also trade with Africa. Solomon imported [ivory, apes and baboons](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=11&chapter=10&verse=22&version=31&context=verse) from Africa (through Phoenician middlemen) for his palace/temple complex. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/15 "2006-05-02T09:47:25Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > The things on the English-British coat of arms are leopards. In heraldry, the only difference between a lion and a leopard is its position. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/16 "2006-05-02T12:03:37Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > In heraldry, the only difference between a lion and a leopard is its position. Indeed? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/17 "2006-05-02T13:32:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > [European Lion (_Leo leo europaea_)](http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/faculty/heywood/geog358/extinctm/EuroLion.htm) > (More recently classified as _Panthera leo europaea_, the European lion is treated as a separate species from the lion we know today, but there is not much information on it.) Minor nit: Trinomial names specify genus, species, and subspecies, so _Panthera leo europaea_ is defined as a separate **subspecies** from the African lion, not a separate **species**. Again from the [L.A. Natural History Museum](http://www.lam.mus.ca.us/cats/encyclo/atrox/), the American lion is another species within Panthera, _P. altrox_. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/18 "2006-05-02T14:08:05Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > Minor nit: > > Trinomial names specify genus, species, and subspecies, so _Panthera leo europaea_ is defined as a separate **subspecies** from the African lion, not a separate **species**. > > Again from the [L.A. Natural History Museum](http://www.lam.mus.ca.us/cats/encyclo/atrox/), the American lion is another species within Panthera, _P. altrox_. _Panthera atrox_ is also sometimes considered a subspecies of _P. leo_ (_P. leo atrox_) Of similar vintage was the extinct [Cave Lion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_lion) _Panthera leo spelea_ (or _P. spelea_), which lived in Europe and across much of Asia during the Pleistocene. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/19 "2006-05-02T14:16:16Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > The things on the English-British coat of arms are leopards. They actually are intended to be lions, except that in heraldry a lion was often _called_ a “leo-pardé.” [From here](http://www.digiserve.com/heraldry/pimb_l.htm) > [@](#): > > Leo-parde - “A lion as a leopard.” The early heralds seem to have gotten the lion confused with the leopard, and when describing him in any attitude except passant he was leo-pardé. > [@](#): > > Lion - The lion is the most popular beast in heraldry. He appears in the arms of Great Britian, Denmark, Spain, Holland, Bohemia, Saxony and numerous lesser countries. As early as 1127 Henry I used the lion as an ornament on a shield. Of the 918 bannerets of Edward II, 225 bore lions. The early English heralds seem to have confused the lion with the leopard. While never drawn spotted as the real leopard, he was described in most attitudes as leo-pardé, or a lion as a leopard. > > The lion is drawn in about 30 attitudes, but it is seldom he is seen in other than rampant or passant. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016/20 "2006-05-02T15:44:39Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > There was also trade with Africa. Solomon imported [ivory, apes and baboons](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=11&chapter=10&verse=22&version=31&context=verse) from Africa (through Phoenician middlemen) for his palace/temple complex. I was actually reading about this recently - there’s no scholarly consensus on a) where the traders went, b) what they bought and c) if it happened. A good deal of ink has been spilled on ‘Ophir’. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-writers-of-the-bible-learn-about-lions/355016.md?page=2)