# Where do Hobbits come from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 12, 2007, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139 "2007-11-12T16:14:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2007, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/21 "2007-11-12T21:48:09Z")
They’re like Funions, only Rhunny. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/22 "2007-11-12T22:17:45Z")
Well, damn. Looks like all the obvious smart-ass answers have been taken. Um, how about: Hobbits come from the imaginations of people who think it’s hillarious to backstab the paladin and run off with his Holy Avenger. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2007, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/23 "2007-11-12T22:23:02Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] As to a few Hobbits still being around–I believe I dated some in college: short men with toe hair. [/QUOTE] I am almost 5’10" thankyouverymuch, and my hairy toes were oft a topic of discussion when the sheets were a bit entangled and other activities had ceased. harumph. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/24 "2007-11-12T22:24:54Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny Angel] Well, damn. Looks like all the obvious smart-ass answers have been taken. Um, how about: Hobbits come from the imaginations of people who think it’s hillarious to backstab the paladin and run off with his Holy Avenger. [/QUOTE] Do I know you IRL? That joke sounds very familar. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/25 "2007-11-12T22:42:49Z")
I always thought the absence of a creation myth among hobbits was one of the ways Tolkien reinforced their characterization as both easily overlooked and generally incurious stay-at-home types. Other people don’t have much if any knowledge of hobbits, and accounts of the great happenings of Middle-Earth doesn’t mention them, because they don’t aspire to greatness and seek to keep out of trouble. Nobody else knows the origins of hobbits because nobody else pays much attention to hobbits, period. Gandalf himself probably knew more of their origins than anyone else, and he was also the one who valued their humble stature and inconspicuousness-- too unfamiliar to be recognized by scent, too small to be noticed by dark forces. For their own part, hobbits generally mind their business and don’t look too far afield from their own immediate concerns. Hobbits who value ancient lore above the practical values of hearth and home are looked on by their neighbors as somewhat weird. Though hobbits do appreciate antiquarianism and genealogy, they seem to regard these pursuits as ways of reinforcing community bonds. Questions of ultimate origins are probably too remote and abstract for their tastes. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2007, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/26 "2007-11-12T22:47:13Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Do I know you IRL? That joke sounds very familar. [/QUOTE] Are you missing a holy avenger? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2007, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/27 "2007-11-12T23:23:15Z")
[QUOTE=Algher] I am almost 5’10" thankyouverymuch, and my hairy toes were oft a topic of discussion when the sheets were a bit entangled and other activities had ceased. harumph. [/QUOTE] Ted, is that you? :eek: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2007, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/28 "2007-11-12T23:37:32Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Um, on a more serious note, is there anything canonical about the origin of the halflings? [/QUOTE] Yes. Specifically from JRRT himself: 1. “It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves. Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did. But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered. The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now lost and forgotten.” Fellowship of the Ring, 11 (Prologue) 2)“The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically _human_ race (not Elves or Dwarves) – hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk. They are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with ‘nature’ (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth.” Letters by JRRT, 158 (footnote) (#131) ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/29 "2007-11-13T00:54:36Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] Yes. Specifically from JRRT himself: 1. “It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves. Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did. But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered. The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now lost and forgotten.” Fellowship of the Ring, 11 (Prologue) 2)“The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically _human_ race (not Elves or Dwarves) – hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk. They are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with ‘nature’ (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth.” Letters by JRRT, 158 (footnote) (#131) [/QUOTE] That second is more what I had in mind, though I’ll note that it’s not strictly “canon” (since what the Professor wrote in his letters would at times change with time). But that first is indecisive, because when he says “far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves” he implies that he would use the term “relative” to apply to both of those races, and we know both of THEM are not off shoots of men. AND, as someone has helpfully supplied, the Ents apparently considered them something other than “men” since they got a line in the Lore of the Creatures poem. However, I tend to think that the Professor’s letter makes the most sense. 🙂 Oh, and Jim, I’m QUITE well acquainted with the Tolkein works, having read them repeatedly since about age 13 (which was some 34 years ago!). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/30 "2007-11-13T01:14:50Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Oh, and Jim, I’m QUITE well acquainted with the Tolkein works, having read them repeatedly since about age 13 (which was some 34 years ago!). 😉 [/QUOTE] Sorry I meant no insults, in fact by that point, I was writing in general for any casual fans that were reading the thread. Jim ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/31 "2007-11-13T01:50:06Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Sorry I meant no insults, in fact by that point, I was writing in general for any casual fans that were reading the thread. Jim [/QUOTE] Gotcha 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/32 "2007-11-13T01:56:38Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] So did the witches in Macbeth encounter a “rump-fed Rhunion”, and Willy Shakespeare just didn’t spell it right? I always wiondered what a “Runyon” was. [/QUOTE] I believe the more commonly accepted construction is: _I am always wondering what a “Runyon” is._ ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/33 "2007-11-13T01:58:13Z")
Wasn’t there a mention that Smeagol’s ancestors were hobbit-like? Is there a formal relationship between the two groups? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/34 "2007-11-13T02:01:30Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Do I know you IRL? That joke sounds very familar. [/quote] I suppose it’s possible, if you’ve been in the Huntsville, Alabama or Richardson, Texas area in the past several years. But I suspect you may be hearing echoes of Dragon #104 which dealt with the typical halfling thief in two out of three of its articles. This was the same issue that reviewed a brand new supplement called Oriental Adventures, if that tells you how olde schoole it is. I found these passages particularly memorable: > [@](#): > > “You see two figures wearing leather armor,” says the Dungeon Master. “Aha!” shouts a player character. “Thieves – get them!” > > Later, another player character is around the corner scouting and passes a note to the DM. When the rest of the party arrives, they find a heap of gold and a complacent-looking halfling. “Okay, Frowdough,” says the party leader, “where’s the big gem?” Sure enough, when Frowdough is turned upside down and shaken, a diamond drops out of his boot." The original of my crack about backstabbing the paladin came from the same issue: > [@](#): > > Mention thieves to a band of adventurers, and every eye will suddenly turn to stare at the halfling in the next-to-last rank who has been trying very hard to look inconspicuous. > > Mention thieves to a group of players rolling up a new party of characters, and someone is bound to ask, “Do we really need one of those? The last thief we had stabbed Roger Ramjet in the back and got away with his +4 sword.” > > […]All those kinds of reactionsa re based on the same kind of thief – the nastly little halfling who filches gems at every opportunity and disappears at the slightest drop of a twenty-sided die. I don’t see as much of this kind of stuff these days, but most of the olde schoole crowd has met this gamer – the one specializes in the backstabbing hobbit. We had one guy who even played his Elf in HeroQuest as a backstabbing hobbit. It was because of him that I insist when I run that adventurers have a code of ethics for the safety of everyone, and anyone who cannot be trusted will be summarily executed even if the paladin has to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/35 "2007-11-13T02:09:20Z")
Hobbits = Short & Hairy Humans. Wel-well-well. I guess that Nobby Nobbs must be a Hobbit, then. Yep. A Hobbit. With syphilis. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/36 "2007-11-13T02:19:03Z")
Speaking of “halflings”, does Tolkien ever use the term or that strictly from gaming? Edit: And I was unaware that Nobby Nobbs ever had the _opportunity_ to contract syphillis. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/37 "2007-11-13T02:19:05Z")
[QUOTE=Shoshana] Wasn’t there a mention that Smeagol’s ancestors were hobbit-like? Is there a formal relationship between the two groups? [/QUOTE] IIRC Smeagol and Deagol were said to be “river folk” an intermediary between man and hobbit. RE The Current Fate Of Hobbits They dwell largely in Florida. I defy you to look at pictures of my parents and their friends and not see halflings. Or, look at the grandparents in Eight Crazy Nights or Boris and Minka of Rugrats. We have short people with hairy feet, who do little work, who love talking for hours especially about their relatives, who trade mathoms, who eat many meals. When I am old, I shall be a hobbit. ETA **Lumpy** When, either Merry or Pippin, adds hobbits to Treebeard’s song he says “Call us ‘Hobbit, _halfling_, the hole dweller’.” ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/38 "2007-11-13T02:23:31Z")
[QUOTE=Shoshana] Wasn’t there a mention that Smeagol’s ancestors were hobbit-like? Is there a formal relationship between the two groups? [/QUOTE] Yes, Smeagol was definitely close to being a Hobbit, he seemed to belong to a primitive matriarch society in the same area that Hobbit emigrated out of. [QUOTE=Johnny Angel] I suppose it’s possible, if you’ve been in the Huntsville, Alabama or Richardson, Texas area in the past several years. But I suspect you may be hearing echoes of Dragon #104 which dealt with the typical halfling thief in two out of three of its articles. This was the same issue that reviewed a brand new supplement called Oriental Adventures, if that tells you how olde schoole it is. I found these passages particularly memorable: [/QUOTE] That might well explain it, I probably read that issue. I have the book, though I almost never used it. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/39 "2007-11-13T02:46:29Z")
[QUOTE=Lumpy] Speaking of “halflings”, does Tolkien ever use the term or that strictly from gaming? [/QUOTE] In addition to the other answers, there’s the mysterious staves from Faramir’s (and Boromir’s once, but mostly Faramir’s) dream: _…and the Halfling forth shall stand._ ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139/40 "2007-11-13T02:57:12Z")
Halfling was used quite often in the books if I recall. Didn’t Theoden use that term? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-hobbits-come-from/426139.md?page=3)