# Where do I go from Beethoven's symphonies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 27, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909 "2012-01-27T21:01:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/21 "2012-01-29T15:06:36Z")
Two authors that may interest you - Eduard Hanslick was a hugely influential music critic of the late nineteenth century. He wrote ‘[On the Musically Beautiful](http://www.amazon.com/Musically-Beautiful-Contribution-Revision-Aesthics/dp/0872200140/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327849392&sr=8-1)’ (another translation gives the title as ‘On the Beautiful in Music’), which outlined the basis of his aesthetic; there is also a collection of his reviews ‘[Hanslick’s Music Criticisms](http://www.amazon.com/Hanslicks-Music-Criticisms-Eduard-Hanslick/dp/0486257398/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1327849392&sr=8-5)’ available. Louis Spohr was a contemporary of Beethoven, and wrote a very thorough [autobiography](http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/Louis-Spohrs-Autobiography-Tr-German-Louis-Spohr/9781145424975-item.html?ikwid=louis+spohr+autobiography&ikwsec=Home). It is most interesting to us today because it gives very good details about the day to day life of a touring composer/musician of that period, and because Spohr was highly respected in his lifetime, and virtually unknown now. Why? His music stretched no boundaries, offended no one and please many. Through the test of time, we have come to recognize what is great in Beethoven’s music that may have mystified his contemporary audiences. Spohr seems bland and unimaginative now. So, I don’t know if I’d recommend buying these - they’re out of print and fairly expensive. However, if your nearest university has a music library, they ought to have these and they’re worth a perusal. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/22 "2012-01-29T17:28:43Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > So, I don’t know if I’d recommend buying these - they’re out of print and fairly expensive. However, if your nearest university has a music library, they ought to have these and they’re worth a perusal. Or, you could read them online. Old, rare books like that, even if they’re not at Project Gutenberg, can sometimes be found at the Internet Archive. I found _The Beautiful in Music_ and a couple of editions of Spohr’s autobiography (in ENglish translation): > **[The Beautiful in Music: A Contribution to the Revisal of Musical Aesthetics :...](https://archive.org/details/beautifulinmusi00cohegoog)** > > Book digitized by Google and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb. > **[Louis Spohr's autobiography : translated from the German : Spohr, Louis,...](https://archive.org/details/louisspohrsautob01spoh)** > > 242 \[i.e., 342\] p. ; 23 cm > **[Louis Spohr's autobiography, tr. from the German. Copyright ed : Louis Spohr...](https://archive.org/details/louisspohrsauto00spohgoog)** > > Book digitized by Google from the library of Oxford University and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/23 "2012-01-29T21:31:54Z")
Interesting - I hadn’t considered looking online for them. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/24 "2012-01-30T00:23:47Z")
If you like Beethoven’s symphonies, listen to his **Overtures** > **[Ludwig van Beethoven, Herbert von Karajan, Berliner Philharmoniker - Beethoven:...](https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Overtures-Ludwig-van/dp/B000001GAB)** > > Ludwig van Beethoven, Herbert von Karajan, Berliner Philharmoniker - Beethoven: Overtures - Amazon.com Music You also might want to hear Beethoven’s _tenth_ Symphony: > **[Ludwig van Beethoven - Beethoven: Symphony No. 10 in E Flat (realized and...](https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-realized-completed-Beethovens/dp/B000RO6CJC)** > > Ludwig van Beethoven - Beethoven: Symphony No. 10 in E Flat (realized and completed by Dr. Barry Cooper) / The Story of Beethoven's Tenth Symphony (lecture by Dr. Cooper) - Amazon.com Music > **[Amazon.com: Beethoven: First Recording of Symphony No. 10 in E Flat, 1st...](https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-First-Recording-Symphony-Movement/dp/B000003YPG)** > > Amazon.com: Beethoven: First Recording of Symphony No. 10 in E Flat, 1st Movement: CDs & Vinyl > **[Symphony No. 10 (Beethoven/Cooper)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._10_(Beethoven/Cooper))** > > Ludwig van Beethoven's Symphony No. 10 in E♭ major is a hypothetical work, assembled in 1988 by Barry Cooper from Beethoven's fragmentary sketches for the first movement. All the sketches assembled were clearly intended for the same symphony, which would have followed the Ninth, since they appear together in several small groups, and there is consensus that Beethoven did intend to compose another symphony. Cooper's score was first performed at a concert given in 1988 by the Royal Philharmonic So... ---
**Author:** ![Walther\_Ego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8dc957/32.png) [@Walther\_Ego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walther_Ego)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/25 "2012-01-30T07:01:19Z")
And then some Mendelssohn too. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/26 "2012-01-31T04:08:44Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > If you like Beethoven’s symphonies, listen to his **Overtures** > > [Ludwig van Beethoven, Herbert von Karajan, Berliner Philharmoniker - Beethoven: Overtures - Amazon.com Music](http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Overtures-Ludwig-van/dp/B000001GAB/ref=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1327882898&sr=1-6) Oh, yes! Start here: Egmont Overture (highly regarded performance) [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONDQHSy7aEs](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONDQHSy7aEs) (really good sound) [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsI0yTC7bic](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsI0yTC7bic) Coriolan Overture [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoultibNlus&feature=related](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoultibNlus&feature=related) Leonore Overture No. 3 [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56fnRnDQMT8](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56fnRnDQMT8) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/27 "2012-01-31T05:10:04Z")
You’ve done Beethoven, Bach, and Brahms, the Three Bs? Then just hop on in. Truly, it’s all good. You have centuries of winnowing to toss out the crap. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/28 "2012-01-31T05:12:51Z")
Thanks from _me_ too, **Cal**! Never thought about those! Q ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/29 "2012-01-31T07:22:52Z")
No one’s mentioned Sibelius? Get a hold of his Violin Concerto and symphonies 2 & 5 among others. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/30 "2012-02-02T13:41:52Z")
Amazed that Mozart hasn’t been mentioned more. If you like Beethoven’s symphonies, you’ll like Mozart’s later symphonies. His last, the “Jupiter,” is especially good. And I agree with just about all the other recommendations, except Mahler. I would rather watch paint dry than listen to a Mahler symphony. ---
**Author:** ![Labor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Labor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labor)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/31 "2012-02-02T19:20:40Z")
All the advice provided in this thread is good. I’d like to provide some additional thoughts. As mentioned above Brahm’s 1st has often been called Beethoven’s 10th. However, I find Brahm’s music to be so very well constructed that it is difficult to understand. I find his music to be impossible unless I’m playing it; when I’m in the midst of it all the world makes sense, when just listening nothing seems to get the light to turn on. So, if you are a very intellectual and discerning listener Brahms may be the next step. I think that Dvorak writes better tunes than Beethoven, not as much inventiveness but quite high quality. I also think Dvorak’s 8th is so terrific it defies words. “To the New World” is good, but the 8th is better. All the grandeur of Mahler but without the pretense, and it only takes 1/2 the time! Mahler’s 5th starts with the same motive as Beethoven’s 5th. It’s terrifically interesting to see what difference a few decades makes. If you like the singing in Beethoven’s symphonies (Freude!), I think the next logical step is Mahler’s 4th. That soprano singing about heaven is a wonderful thing. I’ve heard great things about Mahler’s 2nd and 8th however, they last so long, I don’t have the time for it. If you want to listen to a composer that can spin out a theme as long as Beethoven give a try listening to Bruckner. Bruckner can repeat things more times than seems possible. His orchestration is fantastic, and the 3rd movements of any Bruckner symphony is going to be a treat, muscular strength in three beats to a bar! When big gets to be too much give a try to Mozart and Haydn. These guys are the essence of refinement and the ability to play by the rules. Somethimes it can get a bit boring. ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/32 "2012-02-02T20:36:40Z")
You guys have made this into an outstanding thread, thanks everyone who contributed with views and recommendations! ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/33 "2012-02-02T20:47:04Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > You guys have made this into an outstanding thread, thanks everyone who contributed with views and recommendations! Did you see the concurrent thread: [Listening to Beethoven, his true genius is in his chamber and solo music.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=640210)? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/34 "2012-02-02T20:48:47Z")
> [@Labor](#): > > When big gets to be too much give a try to Mozart and Haydn. These guys are the essence of refinement and the ability to play by the rules. Somethimes it can get a bit boring. Yes, Mozart is very refined and delicate compared with Beethoven’s robustness. I tend to miss that aggression when I listed to too much Mozart, though his melodies are truly lovely. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/35 "2012-02-02T20:53:47Z")
Yup. We Dopers are really a sophisticated bunch! 🙂 Q ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/36 "2012-02-02T21:07:07Z")
I want to second the Concerti, but I am a sucker for a Concerto, piano in particular. It mixes the best of solo work and big orchestral work, plus I love piano music something crazy and Beethoven did stunning things with the piano. Speaking of, check out his Piano Sonatas too. Also, I am currently working my way though [Great Courses: The Symphonies of Beethoven](http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=730) lectures by Robert Greenburg that I got from my library. It has helped me appreciate them on a whole different level. Some of the lectures get a bit bogged down but, for example, Greenburg made me appreciate the 4th in a way I never had before (still don’t care for the 2nd though). I recommend any of the Greenburg lectures on classical music if your local library has them. I would also recommend [How to Listen to and Understand Great Music.](http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=700) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/37 "2012-02-02T21:16:00Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Also, I am currently working my way though [Great Courses: The Symphonies of Beethoven](http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=730) lectures by Robert Greenburg that I got from my library. It has helped me appreciate them on a whole different level. Some of the lectures get a bit bogged down but, for example, Greenburg made me appreciate the 4th in a way I never had before (still don’t care for the 2nd though). I recommend any of the Greenburg lectures on classical music if your local library has them. I would also recommend [How to Listen to and Understand Great Music.](http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=700) I am most of the way through his course on the 30 Greatest Orchestral Works of All time, and I heartily concur. I’ve tried some other classes which I didn’t like. This one is fantastic. As for Beethoven, he is the only composer to get 3 lectures - the 3rd, the 9th, and the fourth piano conserto. Greenburg is a composer, and that experience is really helpful in his explaining the structure of the pieces. I will look for the Beethoven series you mentioned. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/38 "2012-02-02T21:30:05Z")
> [@Labor](#): > > If you like the singing in Beethoven’s symphonies (Freude!) Actually, if you like the singing in Beethoven’s 9th, look for his Choral Fantasy. It starts out as a solo piano work and ends up as a rousing choral/orchestral piece. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/39 "2012-02-02T21:41:19Z")
**NAF1138** , Thanks for the recommendation! I am always looking for new (to me) interpretations of Beethoven’s work. By the way it’s **Greenberg** (e at the end). I’m currently looking for this, but looks like I’m SOL. It isn’t in our PINES library catalog and when I called the library at my alma mater, the University of West Georgia, I was told that even though I am an alumnus, I wouldn’t be able to check it out anyway since the GILL system for colleges and universities is for currently registered students only. I found the lectures available as an audio download for $250.00. On DVD , $520.00. Way out of my league, but I would appreciate a review once you get done, if that’s okay? Thanks Quasi ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909/40 "2012-02-02T21:50:02Z")
> [@Quasimodem](#): > > I found the lectures available as an audio download for $250.00. On DVD , $520.00. > > Way out of my league Unless you’ve got money to burn, never, ever pay full price for a course from The Teaching Company. They frequently put them on sale at a substantial discount. (You can also sometimes find cheaper used copies on Amazon, ebay, etc., if your library doesn’t have them.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-i-go-from-beethovens-symphonies/610909.md?page=3)