You were given a paper by Dr. Stanislav Grof, a pioneer and champion of LSD therapy and managed to take a single sentence out of context to conclude that Dr. Grof was saying LSD had no therapeutic potential? I have literally no words for this kind of aggressive ignorance. Had you read just a few more lines you might have been enlightened by the following:
Brain Wreck - I didn’t deliberately take anything out of context. That was as far as I got. I’ll try to read the whole thing.
tdn
July 17, 2007, 8:29pm
62
Ah. Thanks. I was wondering if it was something like that.
You’d think I’d know that, working in the medical profession and all. Then again, I work in surgery.
OK, I have to call bullshit at this point. You have posted exactly one cite (well, not a proper cite, just your own recollection) of something you saw on 60 minutes this one time. And if you’ll pardon my saying, television journalism is not particularly known for its thoroughness, expertise, nor for its accuracy.
Well I’m sure you dismiss all of these out-of-hand, but these are just from a simple google search:
http://health.ninemsn.com.au/asktheexperts/paulmorgan.aspx?id=1901
While the effects of taking LSD usually pass within hours, it is not uncommon for some effects to persist for days, weeks or — more rarely — for longer. In a minority of people, use may also trigger an episode of a psychotic illness. If you are at all concerned about the longer-term effects of LSD, it is important you discuss these frankly with a doctor such as your local GP. It would also be wise to avoid taking recreational drugs in future.
http://www.brown.edu/Student_Services/Health_Services/Health_Education/atod/od_lsd.htm
Hallucinogens can cause extreme, long-lasting adverse neuropsychiatric effects, like flashbacks (post-hallucination perceptual disorders), relatively long-lasting psychoses, severe depression or shizophrenia-like syndromes, especially in heavy or long-term users or in people with an underlying mental illness. Some of the long-term problems associated with chronic or heavy LSD use are:
* A person can experience rapidly changing feelings, immediately and long after use.
* Chronic use may cause persistent problems, depression, violent behavior, anxiety or a distorted perception of time.
* Large doses may cause convulsions, coma, heart/lung failure or ruptured blood vessels in the brain.
* "Flashbacks" may occur long after use.
Two long-term effects persistent psychosis and hallucinogen persisting perception disorder (HPPD), more commonly referred to as “flashbacks”-have been associated with use of LSD. The causes of these effects, which in some users occur after a single experience with the drug, are not known.
http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/common/standard/transform.jsp?requestURI=/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/lysergic_acid_diethylamide_lsd.jsp
LSD is not considered addictive, but it is considered dangerous; users are at risk for several short- and long-term side effects. LSD’s effects are unpredictable and may vary with the amount ingested and the user’s personality, mood, expectations, and surroundings. Users may experience enjoyable sensations on some “trips,” and terrifying feelings of anxiety and despair on others. Most LSD-related deaths stem not from the LSD’s physical effects on the body, but from the panicked reactions ensuing from intense LSD-triggered illusions.
http://nepenthes.lycaeum.org/Drugs/LSD/LSD.psych.html
The long-term effects of LSD use can be both good and bad. There are cases of people who claim to have had their entire lives turned around, for the better, due to LSD use. On the other hand, some people have been hospitalized by so-called “LSD psychosis.” In the late 1960s, several studies indicated possible chromosome breakage due to LSD use. Some people report experiencing “LSD flashbacks” – brief vivid repetitions of a previous LSD experience.
Would you like more, or are you starting to get the picture? Let’s be clear - these cases are far from the majority, and usually after repeated use. (The cases of this happening after only one use appear to be quite rare). But it is a real and widely-known phenomenon.
Now contrast this to the utter absence of ANY support for the two claims made here: (1) that long-term effects are a “myth” and (2) that the APA has declared LSD to be completely safe.
Doctors used to prescribe Thalidomide. Does that mean it’s a good thing? There are tons of things that were tried in the past and rejected later. What’s the point?
Let me recap the conversation, paraphrasing:
Me: MDMA has been used in therapy.
You: But in large doses, MDMA can cause brain damage.
Me: In therapy, small doses were used, and only a few times.
You: But LSD can ruin a person on the first try.
Speaking of hallucinations, that “conversation” is a doozie.
And let me add one more thing. This whole “therapeutic use” of LSD is pretty much a red-herring. This thread wasn’t about clinically-controlled uses of small doses of LSD; it was about recreational use for “tripping out”.
lowbrass:
Doctors used to prescribe Thalidomide. Does that mean it’s a good thing? There are tons of things that were tried in the past and rejected later. What’s the point?
Speaking of hallucinations, that “conversation” is a doozie.
Doctors are prescribing Thalidomide again. It’s used in some cancer therapies.
Of course, Thalidomide is never given to women who are pregnant or might become pregnant. But that’s the case with many drugs used in that context.
Research is the key.
Doctors are prescribing Thalidomide again. It’s used in some cancer therapies.
Of course, Thalidomide is never given to women who are pregnant or might become pregnant. But that’s the case with many drugs used in that context.
Research is the key.
Figures I would pick an example that doesn’t really work. :smack: Hopefully my point isn’t lost, though.
groman
July 17, 2007, 9:26pm
68
I’ll give actual peer-reviewed cites for both sides,
Relatively Safe:
Abstract
We collected and reviewed studies in which neuropsychological tests were administered to users of LSD or other hallucinogens. Interpretation of the studies is limited by various confounding variables, such as subjects’ premorbid cognitive and personality function and prior use of other substances. At present, the literature tentatively suggests that there are few, if any, long-term neuropsychological deficits attributable to hallucinogen use. To better resolve this issue, however, it will be important to study larger samples of chronic, frequent hallucinogen users who have not often used other types of drugs.
Causes Flashbacks:
Abstract
One unique characteristic of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) and LSD-like substances is the recurrence of some of the symptoms which appeared during the intoxication after the immediate effect of the hallucinogen has worn off. This recurring syndrome, mainly visual, has not been clearly understood, appreciated or distinguished from other clinical entities by clinicians. The terms Flashback and Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder (HPPD) are used interchangeably in the professional literature. Flashback is a usually short-term, non-distressing, spontaneous, recurrent, reversible and benign condition accompanied by a pleasant affect. In contrast, HPPD is a generally long-term, distressing, spontaneous, recurrent, pervasive, either slowly reversible or irreversible, non-benign condition accompanied by an unpleasant dysphoric affect. Flashback and HPPD appear to be part of a vast and broad spectrum of non-psychopathological and psychopathological states reported by hallucinogen users. Pharmacological agents such as clonidine, perphenazine and clonazepan have been shown to ameliorate this syndrome in some of the individuals seeking treatment.
Causes Panic and Flashbacks:Abstract
The continued endemic use of hallucinogenic drugs, and of LSD in particular, raises concern regarding their short and long term adverse consequences. The epidemiology of LSD abuse is reviewed suggesting an increase in LSD use among the young as the prevalence rates for other substances continues to fall. Evidence supports the association of LSD use with panic reactions, prolonged schizoaffective psychoses and post-hallucinogen perceptual disorder, the latter being present continually for as long as 5 years. Evidence does not support claims of genetic disorders arising from hallucinogens. In light of the foregoing, current data confirm earlier findings of long lasting psychopathology arising in vulnerable individuals from the use of LSD. A hypothetical long term molecular mechanism of adverse effects is proposed.
I can get more papers when I actually get home where I have all my logins for the indexes.
tdn
July 17, 2007, 9:31pm
69
The point I was trying to make was that at one point, both LSD and MDMA were experimented with in therapy. They no longer are. But they were considered safe enough to use in that particular situation.
I’m not sure why you’re trying to make it into a bigger point.
You: My understanding is that ecstasy can cause brain injury as well. (Post 33)
Me: I’m sure that with prolonged irresponsible recreational use, that’s true. But in controlled dosages once or twice? Under a therapists supervision? They probably thought the risks were acceptable. (post 35)
You: No, I never heard that claim. The accounts of permanent damage after only one usage are with LSD, not with ecstasy. The long-term effects of ecstasy were after repeated usage, I believe. (post 37)
I can maybe see the truthiness of your post 37, but what’s your point? How did the topic suddenly jump back to LSD? The topic of conversation was MDMA.
“Simple” is the keyword. Are any of these peer-reviewed scientific journals? What are the credentials of the authors? Oh look, there’s “about.com ”. There’s a university student health department. Not exactly compelling sources, many of them appear to be cut-and-paste jobs. And a number of them reference the discredited “chromosome breakage” propaganda as well. These are your sources, and you expect to be taken seriously?
tdn:
The point I was trying to make was that at one point, both LSD and MDMA were experimented with in therapy. They no longer are. But they were considered safe enough to use in that particular situation.
I’m not sure why you’re trying to make it into a bigger point.
Fair enough. I guess I thought you were using that as some sort of argument that long-term effects never happen with recreational use. I don’t want to go back and try to reconstruct the whole argument, and this is becoming more contentious than I wanted, so I’ll just say that I don’t have any reason to disagree with that statement.
You: My understanding is that ecstasy can cause brain injury as well. (Post 33)
Me: I’m sure that with prolonged irresponsible recreational use, that’s true. But in controlled dosages once or twice? Under a therapists supervision? They probably thought the risks were acceptable. (post 35)
You: No, I never heard that claim. The accounts of permanent damage after only one usage are with LSD, not with ecstasy. The long-term effects of ecstasy were after repeated usage, I believe. (post 37)
I can maybe see the truthiness of your post 37, but what’s your point? How did the topic suddenly jump back to LSD? The topic of conversation was MDMA.
I don’t follow. You seemed to think I was claiming long-term effects could exist from ONE use of ecstasy, but I never said that. That was my point.
tdn
July 18, 2007, 12:46pm
72
Ah. No, I never claimed that. I’ve met a few burnouts in my day. Scary.
It seems we had a serious breeakdown in communications.