# Where do people get the idea that the earth is less than 10,000 years old? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 13, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007 "2014-07-13T18:30:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/81 "2014-07-19T22:48:29Z")
1. I’m not too concerned about question wording, since different surveys generate broadly consistent statistics. 2. While misinformation in schools is disturbing, I’ll note that younger people are _somewhat_ more likely to accept evolution, though admittedly not by a large margin. [http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/05/who-are-the-creationists-by-the-numbers/](http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/05/who-are-the-creationists-by-the-numbers/) 3. > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > As with Brainglutton my experience comes mostly through Christian radio which I used to listen to to get my heart rate up. For the most part it doesn’t take the form of hell fire and Brimstone against those who believe in evolution but instead in the direction of mocking. Basically along the lines of… > > “Oh those scientists who think they are so smart, but believe something so against commons sense as evolution. How can fish evolve into land based creatures if all fish if any fish that tried to go onto the land would instantly die? Scientists also arrogantly ignore the evidence of the great flood found in the grand canyon. But you and I read the bible so we know better than those god hating scientists.” That’s a piece of the puzzle. 22% of Catholics are strong believers in creationism, and I’m guessing they don’t get that in the pews. So-called Christian radio might be the ultimate source. So regarding the OP, people believe in Creationism because 3/4 of all Protestant ministers do, evolution is mocked though not argued against during sermons and evolution is attacked on Christian radio. Of course textbook censorship and occasional crackpottery in secondary schools and home schools may also play a role. 40%. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/82 "2014-07-19T22:59:54Z")
Here’s another effect. The General Social Survey had a short vocabulary test that apparently correlates with IQ. Average and low scoring people had equal tendencies towards creationist belief. But those with high scores were a lot more likely to accept evolution. I draw a less obvious conclusion from that. I think that those with better vocabularies read more and tend to pride themselves on their intelligence and commitment to conceptually valid reasoning. They may also have somewhat lower [social intelligence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_intelligence) on average, though this is pure speculation on my part. What this suggests to me is that while scientific education will continue to play a role, much of the low hanging fruit in that regard has been picked. A pro-Judeo Christian / pro-science / pro-life-skill bundle of rhetoric might find a few takers. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/83 "2014-07-20T00:55:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > We had someone on this board not long about who figured Earth was around 5930 years old, or thereabouts. I asked if this meant the mummified Ötzi the Iceman (estimated age: 5300 years) lived at the same time as Adam (“born” shortly after Creation, lived 930 years). > > I don’t recall if I got an answer. I heard that it has something to do with the “begats” in the bible and that if you added up all the ages and generations, it actually comes out to 6,000 years old re: the age of the Earth…because that book is “inerrant,” don’t cha know. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/84 "2014-07-20T01:00:52Z")
Harold Camping, the rather charming crank who (twice) predicted the day of the end of the world, calculated the Creation to 11013 BCE. His method suggested that some of the begats involved dynasties or groups of people; it isn’t as straightforward as Ussher thought. It’s a vaguely interesting approach (perhaps from a psychological standpoint as much as a theological one…) ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/85 "2014-07-20T01:07:06Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Recall that Gallup provided an _explicit_ opt-out: “Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process”. The Catholic church doesn’t have a problem with evolution, and one can even give an evolutionary spin to the first page of the Bible. > Let me take the OP from another angle. Has anybody ever witnessed an in-church sermon where the preacher attacked evolution? Yes I grew up with them. “If all the monkeys turned into people like those atheists say why are there still monkeys?” I’ve heard from the pulpit. But they never have any evidence for their point of view just laughing at the possibility of anyone believing what they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/86 "2014-07-20T01:13:49Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Only women were burned at the stake, it was considered immodest to drag, hang and quarter them. I don’t think that is correct. I recall without being able to link to them many cases of men being burned at the stake. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/87 "2014-07-20T01:35:10Z")
The wiki article on burning at the stake suggests that the punishment has applied to both sexes, though in _Great Britain_ the punishment _for treason_ followed watchwolf’s claim: “The traditional punishment for women found guilty of treason was to be burned at the stake, where they did not need to be publicly displayed naked, whereas men were hanged, drawn and quartered.” [Death by burning - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_by_burning) > [@DingoelGringo](#): > > Yes I grew up with them. “If all the monkeys turned into people like those atheists say why are there still monkeys?” I’ve heard from the pulpit. But they never have any evidence for their point of view just laughing at the possibility of anyone believing what they don’t. Would you mind reporting which [region of the country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Census_Regions_and_Division_of_the_United_States.svg) you grew up in? Because so far all of the anti-evolution preachers described have come from the South, but such beliefs aren’t currently restricted to that locale. Also, more reports of clerical commentary on natural selection are welcome. Where I grew up (northeastern US) science was thought to be as controversial as apple pie, at least AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/88 "2014-07-20T03:28:13Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > So you accept evolution? Evolution says nothing about why. If you, like the theistic evolutionists, want to think God’s thumb was on the scale go ahead. That is truly unfalsifiable. > > Special creation - however long ago, can and has been falsified. We can tell that the earth is far older then those claims. A genetic bottleneck does not mean that the species was just created - we’ve had lots of nearly extinct species, now recovered, with genetic bottlenecks also. (If the bottleneck even exists.) > > Care to come up with a position you can actually defend? Your defense of my position is more eloquent. Evolution says nothing about why, so any and all efforts to answer such a question will be radically different from evolution’s answer, which is nothing … and as they say in the trade … ||. What is a “theistic evolutionist”? What is “special creation”? If it is these you wish me defend, then please tell me what they are. If you’re disputing the human genetic bottleneck … I don’t know what to tell you … I refuse to defend my concession to evolution. * * * If you need 4.6 billion years to explain “how” the earth was created, you’ve got it. If it’s my permission you need , I give it willingly. The Bible only needs 6,000 years to explain “why” the Earth was created, it’s not complicated. Have a happy PV = nRT. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Here’s another effect. The General Social Survey had a short vocabulary test that apparently correlates with IQ. Average and low scoring people had equal tendencies towards creationist belief. But those with high scores were a lot more likely to accept evolution. The Sermon on the Mount is accessible to those of below average intelligence. That’s roughly half of us. How many of us have taken core biology? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/89 "2014-07-20T05:11:06Z")
Natural selection can be taught [in middle](http://teachers.net/lessons/posts/1581.html) [school](http://www.ck12.org/book/CK-12-Life-Science-Concepts-For-Middle-School/r15/section/4.3/). ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/90 "2014-07-20T22:24:56Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > By adding up the ages of all the Biblical patriarchs in the Old Testament. I understand this was worked out by one James Ussher, a seventeenth-century English bishop who, based on all available clues from Genesis, concluded that the world had been created one October day in 4004 BC, at nine o’clock in the morning. One assumes he meant GMT. That being the case, where do contemporary young earth creationists get a pass for suggesting other geologically recent creation dates, if they’re taking every word in Genesis to be literally true? It seems self contradictory. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/91 "2014-07-21T00:20:19Z")
Look what I tripped over in Wikipedia: [Modern evolutionary synthesis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_evolutionary_synthesis) That’s exactly what I’ve been talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/92 "2014-07-21T04:35:11Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Your defense of my position is more eloquent. Evolution says nothing about why, so any and all efforts to answer such a question will be radically different from evolution’s answer, which is nothing … and as they say in the trade … ||. > > What is a “theistic evolutionist”? > What is “special creation”? The only reason you’d need a why for evolution if you think it was somehow designed to produce beings who look like us. If you accept that our form is relatively accidental, then no why is needed. You should really read more on this, since you don’t seem to understand basic terms. Theistic evolution is the doctrine that species developed just as science says, but that it was rigged to produce us by God putting his thumb on the scale, as it were. It is unfalsifiable, and those who believe in theistic evolution can study it just like those who don’t, since they are discovering, not predicting, what God did. Special creation, I believe, usually refers to creation in Genesis, not the form that says God made the Universe 13 billion years ago and let it run. > [@](#): > > If it is these you wish me defend, then please tell me what they are. If you’re disputing the human genetic bottleneck … I don’t know what to tell you … I refuse to defend my concession to evolution. My point, which you missed, is that a species going through a bottleneck did not necessarily get created at the time of the bottleneck. So evidence of a bottleneck does not support creationism. If you found one 4.000 years ago, when the Flood was supposed to happen, that would be another story. > [@](#): > > If you need 4.6 billion years to explain “how” the earth was created, you’ve got it. If it’s my permission you need , I give it willingly. The Bible only needs 6,000 years to explain “why” the Earth was created, it’s not complicated. Have a happy PV = nRT. That is what the evidence says. Can you get it through your head that no one gave that number first and then tried to prove it. Yeah, the Bible says 6,000 years, but the evidence is rather skimpy. My ancestors wrote the damn thing, but most of us don’t accept that date as true. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/93 "2014-07-21T04:37:31Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Look what I tripped over in Wikipedia: > > [Modern evolutionary synthesis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_evolutionary_synthesis) > > That’s exactly what I’ve been talking about. I don’t think any of us has a clue about what you are talking about. Is this what you accept? Is this what you reject? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/94 "2014-07-21T11:15:26Z")
Ok, chiming in late on this. It’s complicated. No, I dont strictly believe in a “10,000” year old date. I believe the earth has been there for millions of years. Animals like the dinosaurs lived and died. Some early proto-humans like neanderthals also developed. However “around” 10,000 years ago I believe God did a major intervention and put modern homo sapiens on Earth and created much of the world we know today. Even biologists would tell you that around that time the earth was emerging from the last ice age and it seems a whole new classification of life sprung up with new species of plants, animals, and insects (including modern homo sapiens) becoming dominant. So its complicated. It’s like asking a mathematician if 2 plus 2 equals 4 and the answer is yes - sort of - because 2 plus 2 can equal other numbers depending upon how you look at it. Yes, the earth is hundreds of millions of years old. But much of the animal and plant life we have today is around 10,000 years old. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/95 "2014-07-21T11:29:16Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > Saying what should happen is the job of God and simple decency. If you change this to “saying what should happen is the job of God **and/or** simple decency,” I’m with you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/96 "2014-07-21T11:58:18Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I believe the earth has been there for millions of years. It’s billions of years, actually. > [@](#): > > Some early proto-humans like neanderthals also developed. And modern humans developed. > [@](#): > > However “around” 10,000 years ago I believe God did a major intervention and put modern homo sapiens on Earth and created much of the world we know today. Modern homo sapiens have been around for a lot longer than 10,000 years. And compared to the changes over the billion years of the earth’s existence, any changes to the earth over the time since modern homo sapiens evolved have been very small. > [@](#): > > Even biologists would tell you that around that time the earth was emerging from the last ice age and it seems a whole new classification of life sprung up with new species of plants, animals, and insects (including modern homo sapiens) becoming dominant. No they wouldn’t. There were no major changes in earth biota that coincided with the appearance of modern homo sapiens. Minor changes, sure, but these were very minor when compared with the huge changes over most of earth’s history. Humans have been around for a tiny, tiny fraction of the earth’s life. > [@](#): > > So its complicated. Complicated, sure – but your assertions are not supported by the data. > [@](#): > > Yes, the earth is hundreds of millions of years old. Billions. > [@](#): > > But much of the animal and plant life we have today is around 10,000 years old. False. Most species of animals and plants today are a lot older than 10,000 years old. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/97 "2014-07-21T17:29:34Z")
The OP would like to know where people get the idea that the earth is less than 10,000 years old. **UrbanRedneck** : I’m guessing that you accept the existence of pre-historic dinosaurs, have attended church on occasion, and have attempted to square those circles. Is that accurate? Like I said, the only anti-evolution propaganda I’ve come across is by Jack Chick, historical depictions and the internet. Never heard it when I attended church. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/98 "2014-07-21T18:01:19Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > So its complicated. It’s like asking a mathematician if 2 plus 2 equals 4 and the answer is yes - sort of - because 2 plus 2 can equal other numbers depending upon how you look at it. No it isn’t complicated. If you are using “4” this implies you are working in base 5 or greater. In any such base 2 + 2 = 4, which can be proven in the axiomatic definition of arithmetic. > [@](#): > > Yes, the earth is hundreds of millions of years old. But much of the animal and plant life we have today is around 10,000 years old. Cite that there was an immense speciation 10,000 years ago? Cro-magnon man is h. sapiens. [We have 30,000 year old fossils.](http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/fossils/cro-magnon-1) Who is telling you this crap? I wouldn’t believe them if they said it was raining. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/99 "2014-07-21T18:20:29Z")
We also have detailed cave paintings that have been dated to prior than 10,000 years ago. If that wasn’t “modern humans” that created those, what did God have against these intelligent beings that he didn’t include them in his grand plan? ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/100 "2014-07-21T20:24:45Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > We also have detailed cave paintings that have been dated to prior than 10,000 years ago. If that wasn’t “modern humans” that created those, what did God have against these intelligent beings that he didn’t include them in his grand plan? If you’re familiar with Jack Chick, one of his booklets explains this away - just because something is “dated to prior than 10,000 years ago” doesn’t mean that it’s actually more than 10,000 years old (he then gives some actual examples of misdated objects, and uses this as evidence that all carbon dating is incorrect; IIRC, the problem is, carbon dating doesn’t work in cases where the objects are exposed to excessive (or is it insufficient?) Carbon-14 in their environments. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007.md?page=6)