# Where do people get the idea that the earth is less than 10,000 years old? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 13, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007 "2014-07-13T18:30:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Stravinsk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@Stravinsk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stravinsk)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/141 "2015-06-21T06:05:21Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Do they get it from the pulpit or is it just a general impression? > > …(snip)… > > Anyway, what I was wondering is whether creationism is a meme or something that is actively pushed in most non-mainline Protestant churches. And if it’s the latter (which I suspect) how does that sermon work? Nonbelievers believe the scientists? Hell and brimstone? Teach the controversy? Or what? > > In the mainline church I grew up with, anti-evolution arguments never came up. My exposure to anti-evolution arguments in high school was limited to [a fictional book about the Scopes monkey trials](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inherit_the_Wind_%28play%29) of the 1920s. It had been assigned to my brother and I had read it on my own. ``` When I attended church (I do not presently, nor have for a long time) the issue of the age of the earth or creation/evolution never came up. I'm guessing the simple reason is that most clergymen realize it's too deep a subject that would they consider not worthy of any divide it might cause in their congregations. To answer your question simply, people get the idea of the age of the Earth by counting the line from Adam to Christ in the bible, adding all the ages. As for Earth(or Universe) being created or macro evolving, that is a matter of a person's faith. From my perspective, someone relying on tree rings, ice cores, radiometric dating and so forth for a reliable guestimate on the Earth's age is failing to apply that logic of observation based conclusion when they also make declarations of ultimate origins that have to do with miraculous chance order out of chaos. Theist and Atheist alike believe it came from nothing - it is more a matter of faith in an intelligent force for the former, or blind random chance for the latter. Although my religious leanings have changed over the years, I've always been in the intelligent design camp. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/142 "2015-06-21T06:20:41Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > It’s still a considerable feat of scholarship. It’s _wrong_, because the data he used was wrong, but if you take the Bible as literal, explicit, inerrant truth, his methodology and conclusions are impressive work. There’s room for argument on some of the “guesses,” but his answer is right–or nearly so–given the axioms he started with. > > It’s like those derivations they always like to show in logic classes, where you can validly derive nonsensical statements as long as you start with false axioms. The difference between _correct_ and _valid._ Logic . . . . . . will not tell you what is true. Logic will only tell you what _else_ is true. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/143 "2015-06-21T14:24:32Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Logic . . . > . . . will not tell you what is true. > Logic will only tell you what _else_ is true. Golly, that sure sounds profound. Can you explain what it means? ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/144 "2015-06-21T14:54:27Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > And they’re correct. > > What they don’t realize is that it already happened, back in 2005, on May 12. I found myself floating, naked, through the ceiling, and up through the atmosphere. Eventually, I noticed I was walking on a lot of clouds, among 143,999 other Raptured souls. Since we came from the entire pool of humans who have ever (or ever will) exist, none of us were able to communicate with one another. There were a few angels flapping around with clipboards, walkie-talkies, and confused expressions. > > It seems that SOMEBODY hadn’t thought things through when deciding on that number. Total clusterfuck. Nobody seemed to be particularly grateful to have made the cut. > > I asked to go back, and they were kind enough (and apparently also embarrassed enough) to comply. Measure this number against seating for a professional sports stadium. > **[List of stadiums by capacity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stadiums_by_capacity)** > > The following is a list of notable sports stadiums, ordered by their capacity, which refers to the maximum number of spectators they can normally accommodate. Depending on how old you thin Young Earth _is_…6 to 11 thousand years…doing the math, only about 15-25 souls per year are eligible for eternal salvation! Heaven must be…small. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/145 "2015-06-21T15:04:15Z")
Yes … sure … science is a threat to religion. However, is religion a threat to science? The Bible says 6,000 year old Earth and the Earth is the center of the Solar System, how does this change Kepler’s Laws of Planetary Motion? It doesn’t … If this is about politics, then remember, all politicians lie for votes. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/146 "2015-06-21T18:58:57Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > The Bible says 6,000 year old Earth and the Earth is the center of the Solar System The Bible does not. The 6000 years figure is based on the ham-fisted analysis of a guy done 1600 years after the New Testament events. And geocentrism is only there is you have an incredibly literal interpretation (basically it mentions the sun moving in the sky, which is does if we’re being relative), and it is a mistake to say that Galileo was science vs. religion. Many secular-ish scientists were opposed to heliocentrism, and many religious figures supported Galileo. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/147 "2015-06-21T20:09:30Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > The Bible does not. The 6000 years figure is based on the ham-fisted analysis of a guy done 1600 years after the New Testament events. Let’s not get too smug or insulting about Bishop Ussher. Numerous people, prior to the nineteenth century, have tried to work out the date of Creation and most of them have come close to similar dates. In the period before Lyell provided new geological observations and inferences regarding a much older earth, speculation regarding the date of Creation was an understandable enterprise. Ignoring the theology from this [Answers in Genesis](https://answersingenesis.org/age-of-the-earth/how-old-is-the-earth/) page, they list 32 different calculations ranging from 5501 B.C.E. to 3836 B.C.E. including three that come very close to Ussher’s 4004. The Jewish calendar is currently year 5774, which only differs from Ussher by 245 years. That Ussher’s was picked as the “correct” date by American Evangelicals is hardly his fault. And there was nothing “ham-fisted” about his calculations. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/148 "2015-06-21T20:26:34Z")
> [@Enola\_Straight](#): > > …doing the math, only about 15-25 souls per year are eligible for eternal salvation! > > Heaven must be…small. It has to be. Like co-ops on the Upper East Side, exclusivity is part of the attraction. Did you really go through a lifetime of virtue to get to heaven only to find that your loud and obnoxious uncle Ferd is your new neighbor? Hardly. Your neighbors were all carefully pre-screened. Many aspire, few are selected. Plus, all the residents are like \*major \*conspicuous consumers. Their lifestyles are replete with God’s plenteous bounty – that’s why they call it heaven, after all – but the carbon footprint and energy bills are hell. This is not a scalable ecosystem. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/149 "2015-06-21T21:32:53Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Let’s not get too smug or insulting about Bishop Ussher. Numerous people, prior to the nineteenth century, have tried to work out the date of Creation and most of them have come close to similar dates. In the period before Lyell provided new geological observations and inferences regarding a much older earth, speculation regarding the date of Creation was an understandable enterprise. Ignoring the theology from this [Answers in Genesis](https://answersingenesis.org/age-of-the-earth/how-old-is-the-earth/) page, they list 32 different calculations ranging from 5501 B.C.E. to 3836 B.C.E. including three that come very close to Ussher’s 4004. The Jewish calendar is currently year 5774, which only differs from Ussher by 245 years. > > That Ussher’s was picked as the “correct” date by American Evangelicals is hardly his fault. And there was nothing “ham-fisted” about his calculations. The extrapolation method relies on too many variables and assumes that the Bible references every minutiae. But I guess you’re right and it was similar to Galileo - by the methods of the time it was perfectly cromulent to figure out dates that way, or quite logical to oppose unorthodox theories. I don’t mind insulting him though. [Guy was a douche](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ussher#Primate_of_All_Ireland), if hardly the worst among his contemporaries ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/150 "2015-06-22T00:50:32Z")
But he was a Primate, just like monkeys and cave men. Must count for something. ---
**Author:** ![Scytheria](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Scytheria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scytheria)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/151 "2015-06-22T11:24:43Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Interestingly, 19.1% of the atheist and agnostic group think that humans probably or definitely did not develop from earlier species of animals. That’s right, there are reportedly atheist or agnostic creationists. Is that so surprising? Atheism is simply no belief in a god, not a belief in evolution. There are explanations for how we got here that require neither gods nor natural processes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/152 "2015-06-22T13:38:38Z")
> [@Scytheria](#): > > Is that so surprising? Atheism is simply no belief in a god, not a belief in evolution. There are explanations for how we got here that require neither gods nor natural processes. I find that an interesting proposition, and I would request that you expound on it further. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/153 "2015-06-22T21:44:22Z")
I’ve heard it argued that the Big Bang was not a “natural process” because it didn’t rely on any of the “laws of nature” which operate in our universe. e.g., you can’t say that the Big Bang violates the laws of thermodynamics (although Creationists certainly try!) The trick here is that there might be three kinds of processes under discussion, not merely two. In addition to “natural” and “supernatural,” there might also be “extranatural,” such as the as-yet-unknown laws of physics which might exist in a parallel universe. But all this really does is ask us to take a step back and consider the entire suite of parallel universes as our new “natural” cosmos. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/154 "2015-06-23T00:10:23Z")
> [@Scytheria](#): > > There are explanations for how we got here that require neither gods nor natural processes. None I ever heard of. Please explain. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/155 "2015-06-23T06:09:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > None I ever heard of. Please explain. There was a sect/cult a few years back called the Raelians who claimed that we were dropped off by space aliens. They made claims that they cloned someone a few years back - no cloned people turned up and they seemed to vanish from the media’s attention. [Wiki page.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%ABlian_beliefs_and_practices) I think they qualify. Not impossible, just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/156 "2015-06-23T14:14:52Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > There was a sect/cult a few years back called the Raelians who claimed that we were dropped off by space aliens. They made claims that they cloned someone a few years back - no cloned people turned up and they seemed to vanish from the media’s attention. > > [Wiki page.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%ABlian_beliefs_and_practices) I think they qualify. Not impossible, just wrong. Or the Scientologists with their spaceships having dropped ancient souls into volcanos or something like that… Maybe that was what Scytheria was getting at…but I’d still like to hear it from him/her. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/157 "2015-06-23T14:20:43Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > There was a sect/cult a few years back called the Raelians who claimed that we were dropped off by space aliens. They made claims that they cloned someone a few years back - no cloned people turned up and they seemed to vanish from the media’s attention. > > [Wiki page.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%ABlian_beliefs_and_practices) I think they qualify. Not impossible, just wrong. But that just pushes the question back a stage – where did the aliens come from, if neither from gods nor natural processes? Or is it clones, clones, clones all the way down? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/158 "2015-06-23T14:46:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But that just pushes the question back a stage – where did the aliens come from, if neither from gods nor natural processes? Or is it clones, clones, clones all the way down? No more than “God” pushes the question back a stage. Where did He come from? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/159 "2015-06-23T18:43:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No more than “God” pushes the question back a stage. Where did He come from? We hear that a lot, but I regard that as a logical fallacy. We are faced with empirical evidence that the universe appears to have had a beginning. The paradox of the universe is that it obeys natural laws that define our reality, but those laws cannot explain its origin. The demand for an explanation for an origin simply comes from the observation that there was one, and that there was therefore some kind of transition from an extra-natural reality (like the singularity or an unobservable spacetime geometry) to the observable reality. Whereas God is posited as already within such an extra-natural reality, where the laws of physics or causality have no more relevance than traffic laws. One can believe or disbelieve in God, that’s not the point. The point is that if one takes a theistic position, it’s silly to demand a scientific account of causality for it. Of course that’s no excuse for believing complete bullshit about matters of biology or astronomy about which science can and does provide definitive answers. ---
**Author:** ![Scytheria](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Scytheria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scytheria)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007/160 "2015-06-24T04:19:40Z")
> [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > I find that an interesting proposition, and I would request that you expound on it further. Certainly, although I think I should refine my original statement: _There are explanations for how we got here that require neither gods nor natural processes._ There’s an error of omission, in that I should have said ‘_entirely_ natural processes’. Forgive me for that. Anyway, the two ‘main’ positions in all this are DIVINE CREATOR and BLIND HAZARD. The first posits that human beings (and, indeed, all life and the universe it lives in) were manufactured by an intelligent being with powers and purpose beyond our mortal, limited understanding. The second posits that a slow, random process of gradual change (usually resulting from environmental changes) accounts for everything. I suggest, however, that there are further options to consider: [ul] [li]INTELLIGENT DESIGN - does not require a god or paranormal world, only someone or something smart enough to do the job. The _'aliens did it_’ or ‘_we time-travelled from the future and seeded the universe with the things that evolved into it, creating a weird closed loop_’ fall into this category.[/li][li]DIVINE HAZARD - requires a creator who, as his/her/its magnum opus, created evolution and then left it running to see what happens. You can add the time loop to this too - evolution evolves the creator being, who travels back through time and creates evolution.[/li][li]UNINTELLIGENT DESIGN - Lamarkism falls into this category. Proto-giraffe can’t reach the treetops. Proto-giraffe stretches a lot. Baby proto-giraffes inherit a more elastic neck.[/li][li]DEVOLUTION - Evolution seems (from the fossil record) to come in sudden bursts. This is more easily explained if the process works backwards - we are not evolving at all, instead we are _devolving_ from higher beings, losing bits when we do so. It only looks like evolving because we perceive time the wrong way round.[/li][/ul] I’m sure there are others, but these give the general idea. No, I don’t subscribe to any of them, but neither do I subscribe to the original offerings. Scy [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-people-get-the-idea-that-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old/693007.md?page=9)