Where do people get the idea the USPS delivers to every address?

[UltraVires]

@guizot

The USPS is the consistently rated as Americans’ favorite Federal Agency. For 55 cents they’ll take a letter from my door to my sister’s door in NYC in a couple of days–I’m not complaining.

That sounds great, except I just got a message to you instantaneously and for free. You didn’t have to stand up to get it and if you are out and about, it would have been “delivered” to you where ever you are reading this right now. And when/if you choose to respond, it will get to me (and everyone else who is interested in this conversation) the same way. Far superior than a 55 cent letter in every way.

That might have been a great argument in 1985, but today I can broadcast a message to anyone in the world who will read it without getting off of my couch.

The USPS is losing out because they are a dinosaur. Very few people write letters and as time goes on, almost nobody will.

@doreen

Then I guess only people who live in cities with walking carriers get delivery, as these curbside mailboxes wouldn’t be delivery by your definition.

It is a continuum and those boxes are certainly better than going to the Post Office and it is delivery in a sense, but not what the USPS used to do. As I said above, twenty years ago those boxes would not be there. People would have had boxes on their porch right by the door. The USPS cut that out with no corresponding decrease in price. And that house gets a package from UPS or FedEx or a pizza company, it would go by the customer’s door.

[Wendell_Wagner]

Many Americans don’t have internet service. In particular, 44% of American households with incomes less than $30,000 have no internet service. Just because you don’t know anyone that poor doesn’t mean they don’t exist. If you will buy every American a computer (as a desktop computer, a cellphone, or whatever), give them free internet service, and then teach them how to use it, then it would be O.K. to get rid of the USPS. Not one second before. Incidentally, I get letters every day.

[doreen]

@UltraVires

It is a continuum and those boxes are certainly better than going to the Post Office and it is delivery in a sense, but not what the USPS used to do. As I said above, twenty years ago those boxes would not be there. People would have had boxes on their porch right by the door. The USPS cut that out with no corresponding decrease in price. And that house gets a package from UPS or FedEx or a pizza company, it would go by the customer’s door.

Maybe where you live - I live in a city and my mail still goes into the box next to the front door. Because my carrier walks his route But I’ve seen curbside boxes in suburban and rural areas where the carrier leans out of the vehicle to put mail in the box for over thirty years ( and I doubt it just started happening when y memory starts.) - it’s not at all new.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

@UltraVires

It is a continuum and those boxes are certainly better than going to the Post Office and it is delivery in a sense, but not what the USPS used to do. As I said above, twenty years ago those boxes would not be there. People would have had boxes on their porch right by the door. The USPS cut that out with no corresponding decrease in price. And that house gets a package from UPS or FedEx or a pizza company, it would go by the customer’s door.

Absolute nonsense. The house I grew up in starting in 1976 had curbside mailboxes. The house I raised my kids in starting in 1999 had curbside mailboxes and it was built in 1993. Both houses were typical suburban homes.

[LurkerInNJ]

@UltraVires

As I said above, twenty years ago those boxes would not be there. People would have had boxes on their porch right by the door.

I grew up in NYC and we all had the typical bank of mailboxes off the lobby but I did have suburban relatives and they all had curb boxes that a mailman with a shoulder sack walked up to and put mail in as far back as the 60’s. I was as fascinated by the little flag they pushed up for outgoing mail just as much as they were fascinated with watching the mail dropping down a chute in my apartment building.

[apLundell]

@UltraVires

People would have had boxes on their porch right by the door. The USPS cut that out with no corresponding decrease in price.

Wow, you’re really stretching to find something to complain about.

[needscoffee]

@UltraVires

As I said above, twenty years ago those boxes would not be there. People would have had boxes on their porch right by the door.

You’re wrong. I have a city archival photo of my house taken in 1940. My mailbox is on a post with 2 other mailboxes on the parking strip in front of my house (no curbs). This is a city block, not rural. Later on at some point in time, mailboxes were added to the front of the houses.

[hajario]

@UltraVires

It is a continuum and those boxes are certainly better than going to the Post Office and it is delivery in a sense, but not what the USPS used to do. As I said above, twenty years ago those boxes would not be there. People would have had boxes on their porch right by the door. The USPS cut that out with no corresponding decrease in price. And that house gets a package from UPS or FedEx or a pizza company, it would go by the customer’s door.

I want to play too! My house was built in 1959. It’s a community of mostly three bedroom tract homes. Mail boxes have always been at the curb

[slash2k]

@UltraVires

That sounds great, except I just got a message to you instantaneously and for free.

Not to me you didn’t. I paid for this computer and this internet connection. How are you getting them for free?

@UltraVires

And that house gets a package from UPS or FedEx or a pizza company, it would go by the customer’s door.

Ha, ha, ha – oh wait, you’re serious?!?

I haven’t gotten any in awhile, but periodically I used to get little postcards in the mail from UPS that they had a parcel for me but couldn’t figure out how to deliver it, so could I please come to their office? This would be an ordinary package (nothing oversized or overweight), properly addressed with my street address, and I live in a town of 100,000+ on a street that has been on the maps since the 1930s, and the UPS driver would be totally flummoxed (or lazy, or whatever).

[beowulff]

I’d like to point out that while email has obviated the need for physical letters in most cases, I still send and receive several hundred letters/year (the letters I receive are mostly small letter-sized packets). If those had to be sent by FedEx, or UPS, it would cost me hundreds of dollars more than I pay now.

[Dingbang]

@UltraVires

As I said above, twenty years ago those boxes would not be there. People would have had boxes on their porch right by the door. The USPS cut that out with no corresponding decrease in price.

I beleive you are quite mistaken about the prevalence of curbside mailboxes. I was born in 1964, and I’ve lived in small towns, very rural areas, and larger cities. Fourteen homes before I was 18 (a story for another time). Excluding the couple apartment buildings, every single home had a curbside box and we thought nothing of it. It was the standard all over the area I lived. It wasn’t any newfangled development, and even back then I remember homes that had rusty mailboxes that clearly had been there for decades.

I do remember my grandmother, who lived in town, having a mailbox right by her front door. It was unusual enough even then that it stuck out to me.

I don’t doubt there are communities where that box by the door that was the standard, as apparently it was in your home town. But curbside boxes are not something that popped up 20 years ago as a downgrade in USPS service.

[Dewey_Finn]

@UltraVires

It is a continuum and those boxes are certainly better than going to the Post Office and it is delivery in a sense, but not what the USPS used to do. As I said above, twenty years ago those boxes would not be there. People would have had boxes on their porch right by the door. The USPS cut that out with no corresponding decrease in price.

As others said, you are wrong. This PDF document from the USPS should make that clear. It’s a history of the curbside mailbox from its origins when Rural Free Delivery started in 1896. “Prior to RFD, individuals living in remote homesteads had to pick up mail themselves at sometimes distant post offices or pay private carriers for delivery (this fee was in addition to the postage paid by the mailer).”

[WildaBeast]

@Dingbang

I don’t doubt there are communities where that box by the door that was the standard, as apparently it was in your home town. But curbside boxes are not something that popped up 20 years ago as a downgrade in USPS service.

Meanwhile, the houses on my street still have mailboxes by the doors. It’s actually kind of odd – only the houses on my block have mailboxes by the door. The rest of the neighborhood has curbside mailboxes.

But I should add that the boxes by the door aren’t unique to my street. They’re still common on houses in the other older parts of town, like anything built in the 1960s and earlier.

[crywalt]

@UltraVires

That sounds great, except I just got a message to you instantaneously and for free.

You have an amusingly narrow view of “free”. Email relies on a frighteningly fragile system powered by an unbelievable amount of electricity and supported 24/7 by the constant efforts of an invisible army of IT specialists. You only pay for (as noted by slash2k above) the PC/phone, the internet connection, and possibly the data and actual email address. Or else you’re getting advertised to death and all your personal information sold. The government invented email and the networks it runs on, and also built a lot of the physical infrastructure, and subsidizes a lot of it still.

I don’t know your political persuasion but I find right-wingers have serious issues with understanding the true cost of pretty much anything. I can’t entirely blame them, since we’ve all been inculcated since birth with the hilariously erroneous idea that the free market determines prices accurately and efficiently and doesn’t rely on, for example, negative externalities.

[UltraVires]

@crywalt

You have an amusingly narrow view of “free”. Email relies on a frighteningly fragile system powered by an unbelievable amount of electricity and supported 24/7 by the constant efforts of an invisible army of IT specialists. You only pay for (as noted by slash2k above) the PC/phone, the internet connection, and possibly the data and actual email address. Or else you’re getting advertised to death and all your personal information sold. The government invented email and the networks it runs on, and also built a lot of the physical infrastructure, and subsidizes a lot of it still.

I don’t know your political persuasion but I find right-wingers have serious issues with understanding the true cost of pretty much anything. I can’t entirely blame them, since we’ve all been inculcated since birth with the hilariously erroneous idea that the free market determines prices accurately and efficiently and doesn’t rely on, for example, negative externalities.

This is nitpickery of the highest order. Of course you had to buy an internet connected device with service, and electricity and so on and on. That would be like me nitpicking the poster who said he could mail a letter to his sister for 55 cents by claiming that it simply was not true! Not true at all! Because he had to buy paper and pens, buy a car to drive to the store to buy the paper and pens, put gas in the car and maintain it, buy a house and a table to write it on, etc.

Of course there are external costs to everything. Nobody doubts that. But internet access is widespread like electricity or running water. You can buy an internet enabled device at every gas station and send messages to anyone in the world. Further, your point would be well taken if you had to spent all of the outlay only to send messages. It is really a side feature of a computer that allows me entertainment, business functionality, research, and all sorts of other things.

But the political lines are so entrenched that people actually want to argue that a 55 cent letter that takes days to get to its destination is an amazing bargain when a free instant email is not.

[BigT]

@UltraVires

This is nitpickery of the highest order.

No, it’s not remotely. It is pointing out that you are engaging in the fallacy of special pleading. Something is only free if it has no out of pocked expenses for the user. Both email and postal mail have costs to the user. The consumer must pay for the service of Internet (or possibly cell phone service) to get emails. Thus that is part of the cost, even if they don’t pay a fee for every piece of mail.

It’s exactly the sort of thing that you do when you claim that free healthcare isn’t free, since taxes would increase. You’re not actually being good with your own political philosophy by claiming that email is free. Because then anything provided by tax money is also free.

The funny thing is, I expect very much that the costs of email is lower. So you could still make your point. But you insist on not admitting fault, and thus opening yourself up to this sort of response.

That said, your argument is flawed in that it mistakes the purpose of a postal service as to send information, when that is but one of its purposes. It also sends physical items, aka goods. And that latter part is more and more important as more and more business move to the same online ecosystem that email uses. It’s been a godsend during this pandemic crisis, keeping a large part of economy functioning while we stay at home.

And it’s doing so better than the commercial entities who try to handle the same job. The costs tend to be about the same (or even more expensive for the commercial entity), but the commercial services often have to depend on the government one to handle the last mile in order for that to work. All the while the law prevents the USPS from having savings or investing money that would be used for retirement to get better returns, unlike a private company which can do both.

To summarize, email may be superior for sending messages, but it can’t handle packages. And, in an economy that is increasingly national and global instead of local, sending packages is essential. And the USPS does it better than any commercial service. Hence it is still vital to the economy of our country.

Ifssaying that is political, then so is your attempt to discredit the service and make it seem outdated. Personally, I just care that the USPS makes things better for everyone, both in convenience and economically.

Until we have Star Trek style replicators, simply sending information will not be enough to replace postal services.

[UltraVires]

@BigT

No, it’s not remotely. It is pointing out that you are engaging in the fallacy of special pleading. Something is only free if it has no out of pocked expenses for the user. Both email and postal mail have costs to the user. The consumer must pay for the service of Internet (or possibly cell phone service) to get emails. Thus that is part of the cost, even if they don’t pay a fee for every piece of mail.

I fear that maybe we are talking past each other, but I’m not quite sure. I agree that nothing in life is absolutely free.

However some things are so nearly marginally free that it is just as good in real conversation to call them “free.” Yes, I pay a water bill every month, but if I go get a glass of water from the kitchen sink, that portion of water that I use compared to my bill is so microscopically small that in common usage, we say it is free.

Likewise, this message I am typing right now, to you and others, adds no extra cost to what I have already incurred for home internet so I can watch Netflix, research online, type legal pleadings, video conference with others, and send emails and messages. This message I am typing has a marginal cost to me of zero.

I dispute that in order to see the “true cost” of this message I am sending to you that I should take the price of my computer and internet service and then divide it amongst everything I do on it and then assign a certain cost to this message. I get unlimited emails and messages for the price of the equipment I have already purchased. Replying to your post costs me nothing.

[RioRico]

@UltraVires

But the political lines are so entrenched that people actually want to argue that a 55 cent letter that takes days to get to its destination is an amazing bargain when a free instant email is not.

Do you receive cheques, absentee ballots, summonses and deeds and contracts and other legal documents, driver’s license and vehicle registration, replacement passport and bank cards, grandkids’ artworks, home medical tests, magazines, and mandolin strings by email? Such stuff is hard to squeeze through I/O ports.

And the grandkids might be stingier with their art if it cost eight bucks to send by UPS.

Do mail servers never crash, never lose connectivity, never get hacked? Could you stay online if you missed payments? Sure, email is cheaper per data byte than physical mail, which is why spammers love it. How’s your spam filter? Mine intercepts a few hundred daily. Very little of our snailmail gets shredded for kindling or to fill an eroding gully.

I think someone mentioned that, dealing with a large organization, a physical letter demands attention while emails are easily ignored. I hate ignorance.

[RTFirefly]

@RaftPeople

USPS is getting hammered. FedEx is going to take the high density routes, just like Amazon is doing to USPS/UPS (and was to FedEx). USPS is left with UPS volume (that’s good), plus the crap that costs more that Amazon and FedEx don’t want.

Here’s what the USPS is getting hammered by:

In 2006, Congress passed a law that imposed extraordinary costs on the U.S. Postal Service. The Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act (PAEA) required the USPS to create a $72 billion fund to pay for the cost of its post-retirement health care costs, 75 years into the future. This burden applies to no other federal agency or private corporation.

If the costs of this retiree health care mandate were removed from the USPS financial statements, the Post Office would have reported operating profits in each of the last six years. This extraordinary mandate created a financial “crisis” that has been used to justify harmful service cuts and even calls for postal privatization.

You’re welcome.

[CelticKnot]

@Thudlow_Boink

How are you defining “address”?

If you live in a place the USPS does not deliver to, what do you write down when something asks for your mailing address?

@Derleth

A street number on a named street.

The number of a P.O. box I’m compelled to rent in order to get mail.

I’ve lived in 2 places that could not have this kind of address because, like the song, the streets have no name.
Both provided PO boxes for free. This was only a problem in the second of those places because the post office would arbitrarily close early, so getting your mail was a gamble.

What was more difficult was trying to create a physical address that was acceptable to the Federal government so family members could get their security clearances. Thankfully, we lived in apartment complexes, so we didn’t need to have a physical address like “Rte 23, 500 feet north of mile marker 77.”