# Where do question marks go in complicated sentences? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 9, 2005, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855 "2005-12-09T10:32:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/21 "2005-12-12T15:49:57Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > You get a “yahbut” on this one. True, always follow the style which your editor calls for. But 99.44% of editors will expect you to follow the standard usage: What are you quoting from? Quotation marks are just as much “standard usage” as italics for titles of works, especially because until relatively recently, most people didn’t have access to italics on their typewriters, and other pre-Macintosh technology. Prior to the 1990s, when modern desktop publishing tools became widely adopted in the newspaper industry, there was almost no italicization available to most American newspapers. Even now the Associated Press Stylebook calls for quotation marks rather than italics, even for “standalone works.” ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/22 "2005-12-12T22:19:51Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Dashes are the equivalent of parentheses in this regard. Agreed. > [@Stratocaster](#): > > By the way, I don’t believe you should put the book title in quotes. I typically italicize when I’m doing print layout myself. When I’m submitting work for someone else to edit/lay out, I use quotes. I’ve had too many editors and designers lose my bold/italics when they import or copy text. This is especially true if you write for small-circulation newspapers or indy publishers. In the specific example above, I like using the quotes because it sets the question mark apart a bit more. You don’t always know what font your work will end up in–especially on a Web-based message board!–and the difference between italic and Roman fonts is often subtle. When computer software just slants the font instead of using true italics, the difference is even more subtle and easy to miss. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/23 "2005-12-13T03:52:37Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Prior to the 1990s, when modern desktop publishing tools became widely adopted in the newspaper industry, there was almost no italicization available to most American newspapers. Even now the Associated Press Stylebook calls for quotation marks rather than italics, even for “standalone works.” You underline when using a typewriter. That was the sign for the typesetter to italicize back in the ancient days before Microsoft. Can you provide a cite for the AP Stylebook? I can’t access it, and every source I can find teaches the convention of italics for book titles. This is pretty standard stuff and not a matter of style, I believe. [This site](http://main.uab.edu/show.asp?durki=7713#q) seems to owe allegiance to the AP Stylebook: > [@](#): > > This section of the UAB Guide to Style and Design provides guidelines and examples to help maintain consistency in written materials produced throughout UAB. It is based on three common style guides: the _Associated Press (AP) Stylebook_, _The Chicago Manual of Style_, and the American Medical Association (AMA) stylebook. From this same site: > [@](#): > > italics—Italicize titles of plays, television shows, motion pictures, books, journals, magazines, newspapers, newsletters, long poems published as books, and gallery and museum exhibitions: _Abstraction and Isolation_ is showing at the Birmingham Museum of Art. Italicize foreign language words and phrases if they are likely to be unfamiliar to readers. When the surrounding text is already italicized, set the title or word in regular type (no italics). ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/24 "2005-12-13T03:56:03Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > Agreed. > > I typically italicize when I’m doing print layout myself. When I’m submitting work for someone else to edit/lay out, I use quotes. I’ve had too many editors and designers lose my bold/italics when they import or copy text. This is especially true if you write for small-circulation newspapers or indy publishers. > > In the specific example above, I like using the quotes because it sets the question mark apart a bit more. You don’t always know what font your work will end up in–especially on a Web-based message board!–and the difference between italic and Roman fonts is often subtle. When computer software just slants the font instead of using true italics, the difference is even more subtle and easy to miss. I agree that certain fonts make the italics a bit subtle. Have you considered underlining instead as a way of not losing the italics? Do your editors replace quotations with italics when it’s a book title, or is it printed as submitted? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/25 "2005-12-13T16:14:53Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I agree that certain fonts make the italics a bit subtle. Have you considered underlining instead as a way of not losing the italics? Do your editors replace quotations with italics when it’s a book title, or is it printed as submitted? The problem is when text is transfered from one software application to another. If italics are lost, then bold and underlining will be lost, too. I write for a pretty wide variety of publications. I use italics for most of them. Over time, I learn which ones to format and which ones to keep in plain text. In your previous message, you’re not really crediting Microsoft with computerized typesetting (or even the consumerization of computerized typesetting), are you? ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/26 "2005-12-13T21:35:22Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Can you provide a cite for the AP Stylebook? I can’t access it, and every source I can find teaches the convention of italics for book titles. This is pretty standard stuff and not a matter of style, I believe. > [@AP Stylebook](#): > > “ **composition titles** … --Put quotation marks around the names of all such works except the Bible and books that are primarily catalogs of reference material… this category includes almanacs, dictionaries… and similar publications… > EXAMPLES: … “Gone With the Wind”, “Of Mice and Men” …” > [@AP Stylebook](#): > > **italic.** Type face cannot be sent through AP computers." Which provides the style, and a very good reason. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/27 "2005-12-13T23:05:28Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > You underline when using a typewriter. You understand that newspapers were not and are not printed using typewriters? > [@](#): > > That was the sign for the typesetter to italicize back in the ancient days before Microsoft. The typesetters at most newspapers _did not have italic type available_ for standard news text. > [@](#): > > Can you provide a cite for the AP Stylebook? I can’t access it, You have the cite now, from **Quercus**. It’s not available online for free. > [@](#): > > and every source I can find teaches the convention of italics for book titles. This is pretty standard stuff and not a matter of style, I believe. Well, if it’s a matter of belief, I don’t know what else I can say. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2005, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/28 "2005-12-14T02:36:36Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > In your previous message, you’re not really crediting Microsoft with computerized typesetting (or even the consumerization of computerized typesetting), are you? No. I was just pointing out that the standard convention when one didn’t have the ability to italicize (which virtually everyone has now) was to underline. If you wrote a novel, for example, you’d underline what should be italicized. The typesetter would replace one with the other. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2005, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/29 "2005-12-14T02:42:06Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Which provides the style, and a very good reason. I’d say it takes it outside of the realm of style completely. Reads to me as if there’s a very practical reason for it. Thanks for the cite. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2005, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/30 "2005-12-14T13:46:02Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I’d say it takes it outside of the realm of style completely. You’d be wrong. It’s _in the Stylebook_, next to all the other style rules. It says to use quotes _in the text_, in the same place it says to use “judgment” instead of “judgement.” The original reason behind it might be a technical limitation, but the fact remains that many, if not most, newspapers, _as a matter of style_ use quotation marks for titles of books. From “Words into Type” (3rd ed.), p. 136: > [@](#): > > Italics are little used in newspapers. When teh meaning might be ambiguous without some differentiation from surrounding words, quotation marks are used. > [@](#): > > **Book titles.** Titles of books (including essays, cycles of poems, long single poems usually printed separately, and works issued in microfilm) are _generally set in italics_ p. 220: > [@](#): > > **Articles, essays.** Titles of books are _usually_ set in italics, but titles of parts of books, articles in magazines, essays, poems, sermons, unpublished manuscripts,a nd similar titles are roman quoted. Titles of series may be quoted, but usually cap-and-lower is sufficiently distinctive. Note that it says _generally_ and _usually_. That means that there are other options. It does not say that it is incorrect to use any other form. p. 40: > [@](#): > > **Titles.** Book titles and titles of periodicals are _usually_ italicized and titles of of chapters and articals are usually in roman, quoted. In some fields, however, neither italics or quotation marks are used Note, the “in some fields.” That indicates that this is a matter of style, dependent upon the context. _Words into Type_ is a style guide usually used for book publishing and scholarly works. It doesn’t tell you the style for letters, memoranda, handwritten notes, and other situations. In the most formal uses, yes, your publisher is probably going to put book titles in italics, but to say that to use quotation marks instead is _wrong_, regardless of context, is plain ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2005, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/31 "2005-12-14T14:21:04Z")
Hmmm. I’m seeing **Acsenray** ’s point, but still holding to the customary stylistic usage. How’s this: 1. If possible, when writing for anything other than a newspaper or other periodical using the AP Stylesheet, follow the “standalone” rules, which are the customary “proper” usage for most publishing and acadamic usage. 2. If writing for a newspaper or other periodical with the hope that the AP will pick up your story or where there is clear indication that the AP Stylesheet is what is desirable, use the gawdawful quotes around all titles system, because that’s what it calls for. 3. It’s not a major solecism to use the “wrong” system, but good style dictates using the proper format for what you’re writing for. Would that wrap this little hijack adequately? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/32 "2005-12-15T14:45:21Z")
You cover all but one situation there, **Polycarp**. Even in today’s world of interchange standards, I write for a few publications that only accept articles as plain text in the body of the email–no formatted attachments (not even RTF!). In those cases, you have to either use quotes or set the titles apart using preceding and following underscores _like this_ (which I personally think looks awful). ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/33 "2005-12-16T03:54:00Z")
acsenray, I think you’re picking nits. The _AP Stylebook_ cite notes that, “Type face cannot be sent through AP computers.” Feel free to consider this an issue of personal style and an enthusiastic endorsement of the aesthetic benefits of quotation marks. BTW, the are lots of wonderful writers who dispense with all kinds of well-established rules of grammar and punctuation as a matter of style. That doesn’t turn these departures into standard usage. You stated that, “Quotation marks are just as much ‘standard usage’ as italics,” and your last cites don’t support this. If italics are “generally” or “usually” used for book titles, then that’s a fair approximation of standard usage. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/34 "2005-12-16T15:33:04Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > acsenray, I think you’re picking nits. The _AP Stylebook_ cite notes that, “Type face cannot be sent through AP computers.” Feel free to consider this an issue of personal style and an enthusiastic endorsement of the aesthetic benefits of quotation marks. No, really, it’s not. I have no particular preference for quotation marks for titles. However, I have read a lot of stuff in my 36 years, including a wide range of printed matter – books, encyclopedias, magazines, newspapers, specialty periodicals – as well as business letters, advertisements, personal letters, historical documents, and all manner of communication, typed and handwritten, and while this might count for nothing more than anecdote, it seems to me utterly ridiculous to conclude that quotation marks for titles is not just as standard as italics. They are used everywhere, and while the most formal style guides might tend toward using italics (and I see nothing wrong with that – it’s my own preference), _none_ of them say that using quotation marks is _wrong_, in any circumstance. And the AP Stylebook cite _does not note_ that typeface cannot be sent through AP computers. The Stylebook entry on composition titles only notes that quotation marks are to be used. That’s the STYLE RULE. In a separate entry for “italics,” is where you find the technical limitation. It is not explicitly connected to the rule for titles. Indeed, it says nothing about whether italics are to be used or when. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/35 "2005-12-16T15:41:54Z")
Can we get an editor in here? **Ukulele Ike? Lissener? Jonathan Chance?** Do you guys do vanity searches? From years of reading and writing, I think **acsenray** is out to lunch on anything but, obviously, what AP-member newspapers expect. But I don’t have **proof** of that. Somebody with a good non-journalism style guide giving a cite would be appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/36 "2005-12-16T16:39:25Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Can we get an editor in here? **Ukulele Ike? Lissener? Jonathan Chance?** Do you guys do vanity searches? From years of reading and writing, I think **acsenray** is out to lunch on anything but, obviously, what AP-member newspapers expect. But I don’t have **proof** of that. Somebody with a good non-journalism style guide giving a cite would be appreciated. Okay, fine, take a poll on whether I’m out to lunch, but let me just clarify what it is I’m supposed to be out to lunch on. This is my claim: Whether italics or quotation marks are used for composition titles (even of “standalone works”) is a matter of style and one should follow the style rule of the publication one is writing for. If there is no applicable style rule, then the use of either quotation marks or italics is common and equally valid; neither usage can be fairly labelled as “wrong” outside the context of an applicable style rule. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/37 "2005-12-16T16:41:17Z")
Oh, by the way, I am an editor, if that helps. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/38 "2005-12-16T22:52:45Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Whether italics or quotation marks are used for composition titles (even of “standalone works”) is a matter of style and one should follow the style rule of the publication one is writing for. If there is no applicable style rule, then the use of either quotation marks or italics is common and equally valid; neither usage can be fairly labelled as “wrong” outside the context of an applicable style rule. FWIW, I think you’ve pegged it precisely, **acsenray**. I’m not sure what you expect to prove by getting in an editor, **Polycarp**. Any editor I’ve every worked with (dozens of them) will simply hand you their publication’s official style guide and tell you to follow it. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/39 "2005-12-16T23:37:28Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Okay, fine, take a poll on whether I’m out to lunch, but let me just clarify what it is I’m supposed to be out to lunch on. This is my claim: > > Whether italics or quotation marks are used for composition titles (even of “standalone works”) is a matter of style and one should follow the style rule of the publication one is writing for. If there is no applicable style rule, then the use of either quotation marks or italics is common and equally valid; neither usage can be fairly labelled as “wrong” outside the context of an applicable style rule. I have no argument with that whatsoever. It was my apparently wrong reading of your statement as an assertion that the AP Style Guide was the proper format that raised my hackles. My distinct impression is that in academic and book-publishing usage, what I asserted in a much earlier post was generally considered proper style; I stand educated on proper newspaper/journalistic style by what you posted. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855/40 "2005-12-17T18:30:48Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > And the AP Stylebook cite _does not note_ that typeface cannot be sent through AP computers. Am I misreading this cite from Quercus?: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by AP Stylebook, 35th edition 2000 (page 134) > italic. Type face cannot be sent through AP computers." I will absolutely allow for the possibility that I’ll be proven wrong, but my position is that this thread (including cites you provided) generally supports the following: **Italics are generally used for book titles–i.e., it is standard usage. There are certain media where use of italics is not possible (i.e., AP submissions where the organization’s computer systems cannot accommodate the use of italics). Within the confines of those media an alternative (quotation marks) is a practical necessity.** Am I missing something? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-question-marks-go-in-complicated-sentences/334855.md?page=3)