# Where do you draw the line as to what is or is not cultural appropriation? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 28, 2022, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360 "2022-09-28T05:24:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/201 "2022-10-07T17:13:04Z")
It’s a very simple pattern. My guess is that MOST cultures have used it. My grandmother didn’t use it because she was Indian, or Japanese, she used it because it was a ubiquitous pattern (and easy to embroider) that was widely used by mainstream Americans. As i said above, it was associated with good luck. So in that sense it’s an odd example to use for “cultural appropriation”. On the other hand, it shows how, if one culture grabs a symbol and puts a strong enough stamp on it, no one else can use it without it being corrupted. Of course they didn’t use it in a movie about Troy. No one would think, “oh, that’s just a symbol the ancient Greeks used”. Most of the audience would be wondering why the director put a Nazi symbol on the Trojan horse (or whatever) and would have been distracted from the actual story. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/202 "2022-10-07T17:21:47Z")
Agree. This is another type of Cultural Appropriation. If Jesus’s ( No disrespect intended) hair and beard can turn ginger and his eyes turn blue, as White folks adopted Christianity : what hope can other folks of other regions of the world have as White folks adopt their food/clothes/ etc etc 😀 ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2022, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/203 "2022-10-08T14:15:09Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > it shows how, if one culture grabs a symbol and puts a strong enough stamp on it, no one else can use it without it being corrupted. And my contention remains that other people are still able to use it with its original meaning (and do so widely). You saying “no one else” is far, far too strong. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2022, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/204 "2022-10-08T14:18:39Z")
I honestly don’t believe that anyone living in “the west” can use a swastika innocently, without every other person who looks at it thinking, “Nazi”. If you believe otherwise, i suspect you live in a fantasy land. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2022, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/205 "2022-10-08T14:26:11Z")
What _other_ people think about it is irrelevant to whether a person can use the symbol and have it represent the original meaning for _them_. The UK and many other western nations have ethnic groups that continue to use the swastika in a non-nazi context and without fascistic connotations. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2022, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/206 "2022-10-08T15:33:08Z")
And yet, i can’t use my tablecloth. I think you vastly underestimate the importance of other people’s reactions. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2022, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/207 "2022-10-08T15:41:15Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And yet, i can’t use my tablecloth OK, _you_ don’t feel comfortable doing so. That is not the same for everyone. You made a claim that _no-one_ can use it and that is clearly not the case. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I think you vastly underestimate the importance of other people’s reactions. I think you vastly _over_estimate it. Feeling offence at what someone has done is not a sufficient reason to expect them to do otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2022, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/208 "2022-10-08T16:36:40Z")
I don’t think someone who adopts some aspect of another culture is appropriating that culture. This is a normal thing that has always happened when one culture is exposed to another, including food, dress, language, and just about everything else. If my newspaper publishes a recipe for Pad Thai, that’s not cultural appropriation. It becomes a problem with someone affects the appearance of another culture as if to say, “Hey, look at me, I’m a !”. Related to this controversy is when an actor is cast to play someone in a different culture or ethnicity. People had a big problem when a White comedian did the Obama impersonation on SNL, and when a White actor voiced the Indian character Apu on the Simpsons. There are increasing calls for non-White roles to be played by actors that match the part, including trans actors for trans roles. (However, Hamilton was seen to be ground-breaking and applauded when no White actors were in the production playing White historical figures, except for the role of King George.) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2022, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/209 "2022-10-08T18:31:19Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > OK, _you_ don’t feel comfortable doing so. That is not the same for everyone. If I had dinner at someone’s house and the dining room table had a swastika tablecloth, it would likely be my last interaction with the person. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2022, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/210 "2022-10-08T19:05:42Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > If I had dinner at someone’s house and the dining room table had a swastika tablecloth, it would likely be my last interaction with the person. Even if this was a Hindu person who’s genuine association with that symbol was benign? ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2022, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/211 "2022-10-08T19:24:58Z")
Hate to bring up _GBBO/S_ again, but Mexican Week jumped over that line and kept running. There was: - A judge who thought he was an expert in Mexican cuisine because he’d just been to Mexico - Tacos topped with meat and refried beans - A challenge where the bakers had to make a four-layer _tres leches_ cake, which, being a cake that has been soaked in evaporated and condensed milk and therefore just a bit soggy, is not a thing. They also had to decorate it with a Mexican theme, and one contestant put a mustache on his. - Hosts jokingly asking if Mexico is a real place, and reducing the culture to sombreros, sarapes, and maracas. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2022, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/212 "2022-10-08T20:41:06Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > This is a real story, although my source is a friend, and i might be misremembering details. But i hope we can all agree that’s a dispicable form of cultural appropriation. Not cultural appropriation. That’s outright theft! ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2022, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/213 "2022-10-08T21:17:51Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > It’s a very simple pattern. My guess is that MOST cultures have used it. My grandmother didn’t use it because she was Indian, or Japanese, she used it because it was a ubiquitous pattern (and easy to embroider) that was widely used by mainstream Americans. As i said above, it was associated with good luck. The 45th Infantry of the United States Army used a swastika as their symbol but abandoned it in favor of the Thunderbird in 1939. I used to have a Gadsden flag I flew in my home office. When I moved, I didn’t bother hanging it up in my new office because it was now associated with the Tea Party. (Of course that’s not what I’d call appropriation.) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2022, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/214 "2022-10-08T21:47:05Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, as the saying goes. Except when I went into a teppanyaki restaurant and the Anglo-American girls wore their kimonos right over left like in western female dress, except in Japanese culture it means we were served by zombies. ---
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2022, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/215 "2022-10-08T22:39:54Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@bump](#): > > > > Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, as the saying goes. > > Except when I went into a teppanyaki restaurant and the Anglo-American girls wore their kimonos right over left like in western female dress, except in Japanese culture it means we were served by zombies Maybe they were zombies. All you saying “there ain’t no such thing as cultural appropriation” - would you as a white person think it’s okay to hold a Pow Wow for other white people? ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2022, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/216 "2022-10-08T23:20:53Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I honestly don’t believe that anyone living in “the west” can use a swastika innocently, without every other person who looks at it thinking, “Nazi”. Eh - maybe this is what a white person thinks. As an Indian person, I look at it that and say : The Italians kept their fascist symbology, the French kept their fascist symbology, ([Fascist symbolism - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_symbolism#)) heck even the Japanese kept their Rising Sun flag from WW2 - something so abhorrent to the Chinese. So did Spain and Poland. But the Hindus have no voice, so lets remove the swastika!! But White people are good at hiding these things. I had never read about these things until I actually toured Italy and the Palazzo della Civiltà in Rome. I understand the horrible pain and suffering Jewish folks had to endure. I also want to point out that India is probably the only country where Jewish people (Cochin Jews) have lived since the time of king Solomon with any anti-Semitism. But at the same time, symbology of fascism has been selectively removed. Symbology important to the wider White people have been retained !! ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2022, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/217 "2022-10-08T23:23:39Z")
> [@kitap](#): > > All you saying “there ain’t no such thing as cultural appropriation” - would you as a white person think it’s okay to hold a Pow Wow for other white people? As both a Cub and a Boy Scout, we certainly had a lot of ceremonies based on or named after Native American traditions. But it’s been 40 years and maybe they don’t do that these days. I wouldn’t invite anyone to a Pow Wow, but I wouldn’t bat an eye if someone said, “Let’s have a pow wow,” if they wanted to discuss something with me. I’ve seen things circulating on Facebook and Reddit that people shouldn’t burn sage for religious cleansing ceremonies because they’re appropriating that from Native Americans. As if Native Americans own the concept of burning nice smelling plants as part of their ceremonies. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2022, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/218 "2022-10-08T23:55:06Z")
India isn’t exactly “the west”. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/219 "2022-10-09T00:10:48Z")
I think you are misunderstanding my post. My point is that if Hitler would have used a symbol like the Templar Cross instead of the Swastika, that symbol would be around today and not banned like the swastika. Certainly all the fascist symbols in Italy, France, Spain, Poland … have been retained and not banned. If the swastika was a cultural symbol of wider white European folks, in the early 20’th century - they would have found a way to retain it, despite Hitler’s doings !! That’s the point I am driving at ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/220 "2022-10-09T03:45:00Z")
Sure, because white European folks would have had other strong associations with it as a cultural symbol. But in 20th-century Europe the “fylfot”/swastika/hooked cross etc. didn’t have powerful enough associations to outweigh its secondary symbolism of Nazi ideology. I agree with what you say about general western ignorance of South Asian culture contributing to the widespread obliviousness in Europe and America about why many people would want to keep using their traditional swastika symbol in ways that never had anything to do with Nazism. The effective “banning” of the swastika symbol in post-WWII western culture was facilitated by the fact that most people in it didn’t know about or care about any non-Nazi significance of the symbol. All of which continues to show that Novelty\_Bobble’s default position of simply sneering at people who express offense at other people’s thoughtless use of culturally significant symbols is not really tenable in a civilized society. Multicultural functioning requires people to have some understanding and consideration about what other people’s cultures are like and the symbolism they attach to their cultural practices—rather than everybody just ignorantly doing whatever they like with other people’s cultural practices, and snarling “so fucking what?” at anybody who expresses any discomfort or offense about it. It’s true that for a long time white westerners have had the convenient advantage of political and cultural power that enables dominant groups to get away with doing whatever they like and not caring what other groups may think about it. Now that that power is becoming slightly less monolithic, a lot of them are getting a bit defensive about challenges to such behavior. Hence the aggressive attempts to recast the typical obliviousness engendered by white privilege as some kind of moral principle of universal liberty, and expectations of cultural sensitivity as some kind of tyrannical oppression. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360.md?page=12)