# Where do you draw the line as to what is or is not cultural appropriation? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 28, 2022, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360 "2022-09-28T05:24:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/221 "2022-10-09T09:24:00Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > All of which continues to show that Novelty\_Bobble’s default position of simply sneering at people who express offense at other people’s thoughtless use of culturally significant symbols is not really tenable in a civilized society. Multicultural functioning requires people to have some understanding and consideration about what other people’s cultures are like and the symbolism they attach to their cultural practices—rather than everybody just ignorantly doing whatever they like with other people’s cultural practices, and snarling “so fucking what?” at anybody who expresses any discomfort or offense about it. You are imagining antipathy that never arises and some sort of malicious intent on my part that simply never happens. If someone tells me they are offended by me using/adapting a cultural practice for my own purpose, I will listen, I may even discuss it with them, then I’ll likely carry on doing exactly what I want. No default “sneering”, no “snarling” In real life I’m perfectly polite. They are absolutely entitled to feel whatever they feel. They are not entitled to expect any action from me or anyone. No culture has, or should have a veto over how their practices propogate in the world. The “so fucking what” comment by Stephen Fry is a comment on the fact that merely _being_ offended does not a valid point make. Immediately prior to that I quoted Christopher Hitchens who puts it thus “you say you are offended? I’m still waiting to hear your point”. The fact of some degree of personal offence is not enough, there has to be more. e.g. If you say you are offended and _then_ go on to point out that someone was making Native American War Bonnets and passing them off as authentic, that is a different matter altogether, that seems a valid issue to be offended about to me. But if you say the source of your offence is me creating my own radical spin on a north-african recipe for my restaurant? Sorry, you’ll get a blank stare and query as to whether you want to make a reservation or not. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/222 "2022-10-09T13:44:27Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If someone tells me they are offended by me using/adapting a cultural practice for my own purpose, I will listen, I may even discuss it with them, then I’ll likely carry on doing exactly what I want. No default “sneering”, no “snarling” In real life I’m perfectly polite. They are absolutely entitled to feel whatever they feel This is similar to the excuse a male dominant society uses to keep the status quo with women. Or to suppress homosexuals. Or to keep trans people from using toilets of their choice. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > … The fact of some degree of personal offence is not enough, there has to be more. Its enough for Daryl Morey of NBA and the entire NBA to grovel before the Chinese. Its enough to remove stereotypical Asian villains from Hollywood movies. … Most of the world doesn’t want to follow the Chinese model, but looks like you are saying that’s the only model that works. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/223 "2022-10-09T14:09:10Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Even if this was a Hindu person who’s genuine association with that symbol was benign? Well, I don’t know any hindu people, but I would expect _anyone_ to understand how people would react to fucking swastikas. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/224 "2022-10-09T14:20:01Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I don’t know any hindu people, Do you know any Italian, French or people from Spain ? > [@kayaker](#): > > I would expect _anyone_ to understand how people would react to fucking swastikas. Would you also expect _anyone_ to understand how people would react to fucking fascist signs ? Now do you know how many such fascist signs are present all over Europe ? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/225 "2022-10-09T14:44:20Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Do you know any Italian, French or people from Spain ? I know a bunch of people from France, having met them in the French West Indies. I know people with Italian sounding last names who participate in Italian fairs, do they count? > [@am77494](#): > > Would you also expect _anyone_ to understand how people would react to fucking fascist signs ? I’m not even sure what a fucking fascist sign is. A billboard? > [@am77494](#): > > Now do you know how many such fascist signs are present all over Europe ? Never been there, so no. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/226 "2022-10-09T14:57:25Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > This is similar to the excuse a male dominant society uses to keep the status quo with women. > Or to suppress homosexuals. Or to keep trans people from using toilets of their choice. Similar? in what way similar? It has sod all to do with people having full equality. In fact my response above would be a perfect, fitting response to anyone who does claim offence at full equality for women, homosexuals, other ethniciites, trans people etc. They tell me they are offended by any of that? then I refer you to the response above. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/227 "2022-10-09T14:59:53Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Its enough for Daryl Morey of NBA and the entire NBA to grovel before the Chinese. Its enough to remove stereotypical Asian villains from Hollywood movies. … > > Most of the world doesn’t want to follow the Chinese model, but looks like you are saying that’s the only model that works. I’m not sure I understand you. If I were responding to the Chinese claims of offence I would recommend _not_ grovelling or bending to it. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/228 "2022-10-09T15:05:07Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Well, I don’t know any hindu people, but I would expect _anyone_ to understand how people would react to fucking swastikas. I’m sure most people will understand that a common reaction to seeing a swastika is to think “nazi”. I’m not claiming otherwise. That has no bearing on whether some cultural groups (including the hindus that you are not familiar with) can and do still the use the swastika with its original meaning intact for them. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/229 "2022-10-09T15:15:54Z")
There’s a movie called _Master of the Flying Guillotine_ which is a 1976 Hong Kong martial arts movie. The main baddie is a blind martial artists who uses the flying guillotine, and he proudly displays a rather large swastika on the front of his robes. I first saw this movie around 1999, and when the bad guy made his first appearance we burst out in laughter because we were completely surprised. None of us thought this was a pro-Nazi display as we understand the symbol means something different in other parts of the world. It’s true, when I see a swastika the first thing that comes to mind are Nazis and unless I spend a lot of time in India or another place where it’s still commonly used I don’t think that’ll change. I sure don’t expect anyone in India, Japan, or China to stop using the symbol just because of what I associate it with. But anyone using it here in the United States shouldn’t be surprised when they make a negative impression on others. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/230 "2022-10-09T15:37:16Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > The Italians kept their fascist symbology, the French kept their fascist symbology, ([Fascist symbolism - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_symbolism#) > [@kayaker](#): > > I’m not even sure what a fucking fascist sign is. A billboard? Please read ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/231 "2022-10-09T15:57:43Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Is it actually leading to less usage? Google Maps currently uses swastikas to mark religious sites. **[Here’s a cluster of such sites in east Kyoto](https://www.google.com/maps/@34.9787742,135.7745651,15.75z?hl=en)**. Is there less usage by Google? You would have to ask them. Less usage by locals in Japan? Unconfirmed. But the continued usage is an issue discussed by some people in Japan. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/232 "2022-10-09T15:58:32Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Please read OK, but that’s all stuff happening in Europe. Never been there, no plans to visit. A German living in the US who chooses to display a celtic cross as a neonazi symbol is not someone I’d have anything to do with. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/233 "2022-10-09T17:30:57Z")
I’m guessing the Italiians and French retained the _fasces_ as part of their symbolism because it predated the Fascists, being a Roman thing. And why should the French have lost it? Is this some sort of post-Napoleon thing? And the Japanese flags predated WWII, and anyway Japan didn’t undergo the same sort of dramatic regime change that the Italians and Germans did, with the Emperor remaining technically in power. So it makes sense that the Imperial flags and symbols would remain as well, even if a lot (all?) of the institutions that used them have since changed (e.g. it’s the JMSDF now instead of the Imperial Japanese Navy, but they still fly the Rising Sun flag). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/234 "2022-10-09T17:38:20Z")
In my view, the concept of cultural appropriation ought to be applicable only when the accused appropriator is part of a historically imperialistic or oppressive heritage and the accused appropriatee was dominated or oppressed by that specific accused appropriator’s nation, or cultural forebears. For example, I don’t think I’m appropriating anything if I start wearing a tartan kilt, a fez, and a cheongsam, and record an album of Celtic harp and bagpipe music under the name Temujin Khan. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/235 "2022-10-09T17:41:19Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’m guessing the Italiians and French retained the _fasces_ as part of their symbolism because it predated the Fascists, being a Roman thing. Exactly The swastika predated the fascists too. But it was not a majority white European sign (at least most Europeans don’t know that) - so it was singled out for getting banned. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/236 "2022-10-09T17:52:54Z")
I think that’s a big part of it, and that it was specifically a symbol of a specific party and government viewed as largely responsible for the war. The other stuff like the use of the fasces as a symbol of power and authority long predated the Nazis, Mussolini, etc… [In fact, it’s even used on some monuments and institutions in the US in that role.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces#United_States) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/237 "2022-10-09T18:10:51Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > Hate to bring up _GBBO/S_ again, but Mexican Week jumped over that line and kept running. There was: > … > > - They also had to decorate it with a Mexican theme, and one contestant put a mustache on his. > - Hosts jokingly asking if Mexico is a real place, and reducing the culture to sombreros, sarapes, and maracas Y’know, they’ve got to give up trying to fill in for the old _Top Gear_ crew ---
**Author:** ![Mnemnosyne](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mnemnosyne/32/3347_2.png) [@Mnemnosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mnemnosyne)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/238 "2022-10-09T19:24:38Z")
You know, I would have said the concept itself is inherently ridiculous, but one example in this thread did strike me as reasonable: the swastika example. Which also leads me to see **exactly** where the line is, as far as I’m concerned. It is when something becomes so overwhelmingly associated not only with something different than its origin but something **negative,** to the point where it can no longer be used it in its original context without constantly having to provide defenses and explanations to the majority of people who now associate any use of the thing in question with whatever negative connotation has been attached to it…that’s where it becomes a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/239 "2022-10-09T21:30:08Z")
> [@Mnemnosyne](#): > > It is when something becomes so overwhelmingly associated not only with something different than its origin but something **negative,** to the point where it can no longer be used it in its original context without constantly having to provide defenses and explanations to the majority of people who now associate any use of the thing in question with whatever negative connotation has been attached to it…that’s where it becomes a problem. In a way, the Nazis’ victims have themselves rightfully appropriated the swastika - as the symbol of ultimate evil. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2022, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/240 "2022-10-10T03:39:25Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If someone tells me they are offended by me using/adapting a cultural practice for my own purpose, I will listen, I may even discuss it with them, then I’ll likely carry on doing exactly what I want. No default “sneering”, no “snarling” In real life I’m perfectly polite. Well, even that minimal amount of consideration and empathy is a significant shift from your haughty declaration back in post #142 that everyone should simply pay no attention at all to anyone objecting to their choices: > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > All of those people are completely free to choose whatever clothing they like and should take no notice of anyone who complains. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The “so fucking what” comment by Stephen Fry is a comment on the fact that merely _being_ offended does not a valid point make. It’s basically a double standard used to imply that the offended party’s position is merely subjective “feelings”, whereas the other party’s position is an objective standard of conduct. As [this observer noted:](https://eev.ee/blog/2016/02/15/everyones-offended-these-days/) > [@](#): > > What he’s really saying is this: everyone else’s feelings don’t matter, but _his do_ , because he frames them as _universal rules of discourse_ rather than feelings. […] > > Fry’s feelings aren’t feelings — they are a universal and objective standard of behavior, which everyone else is violating. All those angry people, yelling that Fry has violated a universal and objective standard of behavior? Ah, they’re just perpetually offended, you see. Totally different. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > But if you say the source of your offence is me creating my own radical spin on a north-african recipe for my restaurant? Sorry, you’ll get a blank stare In other words, contrary to what you just asserted, you won’t actually “listen to” anybody making any objection concerning cultural appropriation, unless you’ve already decided that the issue in question counts as “a valid issue to be offended about” (according to your own subjective feelings, of course). You’ll simply ignore them right from the get-go. Yeah, I’m not imagining the antipathy I see here. You really seem to have quite a bit invested in the mission of not paying any attention to a different cultural perspective if you haven’t already decided you agree with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360.md?page=13)