# Where do you draw the line as to what is or is not cultural appropriation? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 28, 2022, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360 "2022-09-28T05:24:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2022, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/241 "2022-10-10T03:50:04Z")
> [@Mnemnosyne](#): > > You know, I would have said the concept itself is inherently ridiculous, but one example in this thread did strike me as reasonable: the swastika example. Which also leads me to see **exactly** where the line is, as far as I’m concerned. > > It is when something becomes so overwhelmingly associated not only with something different than its origin but something **negative,** to the point where it can no longer be used it in its original context without constantly having to provide defenses and explanations to the majority of people who now associate any use of the thing in question with whatever negative connotation has been attached to it…that’s where it becomes a problem. Even if we agree that, say, the ancient Indian swastika “can no longer be used in its original context without constantly having to provide defenses and explanations to the majority of people” (which I’m not at all sure that I agree with anyway; literally hundreds of millions of Indian people in their own culture use the swastika “in its original context” of a traditional auspicious symbol all the time, without any defenses or explanations required), what does that have to do with cultural appropriation? The problem with the Nazi swastika isn’t so much that they copied another culture’s meaningful symbol for their own symbolic purposes, as that the purposes they used it to symbolize were overwhelmingly nefarious and evil. If instead of genocidal fascists the Nazis had been, say, an animal-welfare movement dedicated to providing better care for stray kittens and puppies, and put the Indian swastika on their logo just because they thought it was cute, we could still be having a valid conversation about whether that could be considered an unacceptable form of cultural appropriation. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2022, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/242 "2022-10-10T04:17:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > and put the Indian swastika on their logo just because they thought it was cute, we could still be having a valid conversation about whether that could be considered an unacceptable form of cultural appropriation. I think this example sort of falls apart here, in the real world, because the swastika has been so commonly used throughout the world and across such a variety of time and space that I think it’s a stretch to refer to any version of the symbol as “the Indian swastika” unless you’re just talking about the _word_ “swastika.” In which case, one could make the argument that in referring to the Nazi symbol, we are unfairly defaming the Sanskrit word _swastika_ and when we refer to its nefarious associations, we ought to call it by our own English word _fylfot_ or, indeed, _Hakenkreuz_, which is what it’s called in German. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2022, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/243 "2022-10-10T04:21:58Z")
Yup, all valid points. Personally, I would like to see increasingly widespread and accepted use of various forms of the ancient swastika in their original cultural contexts, accompanied by increasing and well-deserved cultural oblivion and irrelevance for the specific form and meaning of the evil aberration that was the Nazi “swastika”. I don’t know that I ever will see that, but I’d like to. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2022, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/244 "2022-10-10T07:35:29Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, even that minimal amount of consideration and empathy is a significant shift from your haughty declaration back in post #142 that everyone should simply pay no attention at all to anyone objecting to their choices: I don’t think “listening” to what a person says counts as “paying attention”. I would still then dimisss what they say when it comes to criticising what I wear. > [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s basically a double standard used to imply that the offended party’s position is merely subjective “feelings”, whereas the other party’s position is an objective standard of conduct No, that’s absolutely not what either Fry or Hitchens meant when they said what they said. There’s no double standard at play. Your random internet commentator is also completely misunderstanding it. > [@Kimstu](#): > > In other words, contrary to what you just asserted, you won’t actually “listen to” anybody making any objection concerning cultural appropriation, unless you’ve already decided that the issue in question counts as “a valid issue to be offended about” I gave you two examples. One that I would not be concerned about, one that I would. What I hear from the person (an explanation that has to rise above “I’m offended”) would impact whether I think they have a valid point that I need to be concerned about. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeah, I’m not imagining the antipathy I see here. You really seem to have quite a bit invested in the mission of not paying any attention to a different cultural perspective if you haven’t already decided you agree with it. There’s no “mission”. I think cultural mixing, adaptation and adoption is an excellent thing, it is the way we all progress and I want it to happen as much as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Mnemnosyne](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mnemnosyne/32/3347_2.png) [@Mnemnosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mnemnosyne)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2022, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/245 "2022-10-10T08:08:44Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Even if we agree that, say, the ancient Indian swastika “can no longer be used in its original context without constantly having to provide defenses and explanations to the majority of people” (which I’m not at all sure that I agree with anyway; literally hundreds of millions of Indian people in their own culture use the swastika “in its original context” of a traditional auspicious symbol all the time, without any defenses or explanations required), what does that have to do with cultural appropriation? Sure, there are areas of the world where no explanation is needed, but in the ‘west’, anyone attempting to use it in its original context **will** have to constantly provide explanations. Especially if they happen to not ‘look right’ for an Indian. But no, I don’t think the conversation about a group using a symbol for their better care for stray kittens and puppies organization would be equally valid. Unless the new context is _negative,_ it doesn’t become a bad thing. If, in this hypothetical world, you have a swastika bumper sticker, nobody will think you’re an evil monster. They may think you support caring for kittens and puppies, and you might explain ‘oh, no, this version is a good luck symbol’ and they’re not going to insist that you must be a kitten-and-puppy-carer because of it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2022, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/246 "2022-10-10T12:40:15Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I honestly don’t believe that anyone living in “the west” can use a swastika innocently, without every other person who looks at it thinking, “Nazi”. If you believe otherwise, i suspect you live in a fantasy land. I know what you mean, and I don’t have a solution, but it feels like this situation has allowed nazis to have a victory, albeit in a small way. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2022, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/247 "2022-10-10T16:36:22Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I know what you mean, and I don’t have a solution, but it feels like this situation has allowed nazis to have a victory, albeit in a small way. Really? To me it seems more like a defeat. Let their symbol be a curse, from now until the end of time. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2022, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/248 "2022-10-10T16:56:50Z")
So, the owner of this car is having problems getting it started. Do you offer to help? [![Imgur](https://i.imgur.com/IEeCEc8.jpeg "imgur.com") ](https://imgur.com/IEeCEc8) ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2022, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/249 "2022-10-10T18:34:46Z")
To be honest, I probably would, if only to get a glimpse into his/her world and mind-set in a non threatening place where (in theory, as the helper) I am in a position of power. Also, I am of the opinion that helping anyone, out of altruism, is a good thing. I do find it distinctiy weird that anyone would decorate their car like this. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2022, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/250 "2022-10-10T18:41:14Z")
It’s not their symbol ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2022, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/251 "2022-10-10T19:27:53Z")
No, it’s _our_ symbol now - the symbol of ultimate evil. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2022, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/252 "2022-10-10T20:41:57Z")
So you’re saying that you believe the irrevocable transformation of a symbol of divinity, prosperity and luck into a symbol of ultimate evil, is best described as a victory for the good side, not the evil one? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2022, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/253 "2022-10-10T21:41:26Z")
Bad things should have symbols too. Would you take the skull and crossbones off of bottles of poison, to avoid offending skeletons? ---
**Author:** ![LoneRhino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lonerhino/32/1311_2.png) [@LoneRhino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LoneRhino)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2022, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/254 "2022-10-11T01:12:56Z")
Skeletons were people too. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2022, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/255 "2022-10-13T18:26:35Z")
Sort of hard to answer a silly imaginary example. Yes, maybe bad things _should_ have symbols, but is it right when they are stolen from good things? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2022, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/256 "2022-10-13T18:38:49Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > So, the owner of this car is having problems getting it started. Do you offer to help? - > > [Imgur: The magic of the Internet](https://imgur.com/IEeCEc8) Of course I will. His definition of “help” may differ from mine, though. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2022, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/257 "2022-10-13T21:53:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > No, it’s _our_ symbol now - the symbol of ultimate evil. While I agree that the specific black-white-red Hakenkreuz design of the Nazi flags is indelibly associated with the evils of Nazism, I wouldn’t agree that all other forms of the swastika from different traditions should be similarly condemned and repudiated due to that association. The two photos in [this article](https://www.opindia.com/2022/05/australias-victoria-state-to-ban-nazi-hakenkreuz-will-allow-hindu-swastika/) about a recent decision by Victoria state in Australia to ban the Nazi symbol illustrate the sort of distinction I mean. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2022, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/258 "2022-10-13T21:58:58Z")
The government shouldn’t be banning (or allowing) speech. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2022, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/259 "2022-10-13T22:23:26Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > While I agree that the specific black-white-red Hakenkreuz design of the Nazi flags is indelibly associated with the evils of Nazism, I wouldn’t agree that all other forms of the swastika from different traditions should be similarly condemned and repudiated due to that association. I agree, and I think the opposite opinion is to some degree an example of the lack of nuance and even critical thinking that happens with the whole appropriation question. Heck, even just the rotated symbol by itself is only ever a reference to the Nazis. I can clearly distinguish that from the symbol that’s being used in the non-rotated configuration on a Buddhist temple, for example, or other religious usage. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2022, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360/260 "2022-10-14T07:17:24Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > The government shouldn’t be banning (or allowing) speech. So, I can call an ethnic group “cockroaches” on my radio show, even call for them to be exterminated, but that’s just “speech” and the government should do squat about it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-draw-the-line-as-to-what-is-or-is-not-cultural-appropriation/972360.md?page=14)