# Where do you stand on the Bill Maher/Ben Affleck argument? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589 "2014-10-06T21:01:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/181 "2014-10-09T15:55:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If they’re saying “conservative Muslims who believe women should be oppressed are wrong” then that’s fine, to me, and not bigoted. But, IIRC, I’ve heard Bill Maher say things like “Muslims are more violent”, or “Muslims oppress women”, or “Islam oppresses women”, which is a blanket negative (and false, because there are obviously exceptions) statement, and a bigoted one. but they do, pretty much everywhere it’s not illegal, they do!!! ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/182 "2014-10-09T15:59:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My point, by the way, has nothing to do with who or what can be considered “legitimately” Muslim. That doesn’t matter at all to me. The problem I have is with blanket negative statements that malign millions when there are numerous exceptions within those groups. Just like “blacks are more violent” is a bigoted statement, “Muslims are more violent” is also a bigoted statement. “The statistics show that black people have a higher representation among those convicted of crimes” is not a bigoted statements, and neither is the same about Muslims and terrorism, for example. But those are different statements. > > Just like “black people are less intelligent on average” is a bigoted statement, but “the statistics show that black people score lower, on average, on some academic tests” is not bigoted. The first does not follow, necessarily, from the second, in addition to being one of those blanket-negative-statements that is _always bigoted_, in my view. > > But it’s always possible I’m not doing a good job of making my point. I’d be happy to try and explain better if you show me exactly where you think I’m going wrong. bad example. the color of your skin has no bearing upon how you think. your religious beliefs do, however. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/183 "2014-10-09T16:03:58Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > At the risk of oversimplification, it seems that Maher had facts, and the counter-retort to Maher’s facts was to the effect of…presenting-those-facts-is-intolerant. Some of his statements were factual, and some were blanket-negative-statements that were not factual, if I remember correctly. I’m obviously criticizing the second type. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/184 "2014-10-09T16:05:09Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > but they do, pretty much everywhere it’s not illegal, they do!!! This is not a factual statement. > [@](#): > > bad example. the color of your skin has no bearing upon how you think. your religious beliefs do, however. It’s a good example, because both of these kinds of statements take something true – like “black people have a higher representation among convicted criminals” – and twist it into something bigoted (and false), like “black people are more violent” or “black people are stupider”. It’s no different if done with a religious group. Yes, terrorists might be statistically more likely to be Muslim, and countries that are majority Muslim might be statistically more likely to have oppressive laws against women, but twisting that to “Muslims are more violent” or “Muslims oppress women” is both false (because there are obviously many exceptions) and bigoted, because it ascribes a negative quality to a broad group without making distinctions beyond this extremely broad categorization. It’s just as possible to be bigoted against a religious group as it is to be bigoted against an ethnic or racial group. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/185 "2014-10-09T16:07:52Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Maher and Harris’s point was that many of these Muslims condemning ISIS still believe in death for apostacy, stoning for adultery, and other unconscienable punishments for non-crimes. If that was their point, it is a silly and trivial point to make. No one disagrees that many Muslims believe those things, just as no one disagrees that many Christians believe homosexuals should be jailed or killed. In context, I think you have to understand them to be making some further claim about Islam and how Islam ought to be responded to. Their claim is that there is something about the content of Islam–the thing that is interpreted by different believers–that is more violent or intolerant than other religions. They believe that moderates are like cafeteria Catholics, that they are not really following the true religion. That claim is much harder to substantiate. > [@Sherrerd](#): > > As one example, Christian leaders and councils were called upon to condemn the 2009 Ugandan law against homosexuality. When I say that “we” impose this obligation uniquely on Muslims, I’m talking about American culture generally. You cannot watch the news over the last two months without seeing many appeals (or worse) for Muslims to condemn ISIS. By contrast, this was nowhere close to the focus of coverage over the Ugandan law. No one really cared whether the Pope denounced it or not, notwithstanding the fact that there is a much much better argument for why as the leader of his faith he had an obligation to do so that is quite different from Indonesian Muslims denouncing ISIS. I appreciate your acknowledgment of the denunciation and clarification of your point. In the context of this thread, I had indeed read some of your posts to be implying things they did not say. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/186 "2014-10-09T16:12:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is not a factual statement. If you were a homosexual, female, atheist, would you want to live in any of these countries: Libya Somalia Tunisia Yemen Oman UAE Saudi Arabia Jordan Lebanon Turkey Syria Iraq Iran Afghanistan Pakistan ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/187 "2014-10-09T16:14:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s just as possible to be bigoted against a religious group as it is to be bigoted against an ethnic or racial group. So in other words, you’re more interested in making sure no one says anything bad about Muslims than you are in admitting there are some serious problems in Muslim dominated countries. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/188 "2014-10-09T16:15:12Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > If you were a homosexual, female, atheist, would you want to live in any of these countries This has nothing to do with anything I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/189 "2014-10-09T16:16:47Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > So in other words, you’re more interested in making sure no one says anything bad about Muslims than you are in admitting there are some serious problems in Muslim dominated countries. As long as you qualify it properly, I’m fine with this, and it doesn’t contradict anything I’ve said. There are absolutely many serious problems in many Muslim-majority countries. There are many problems that are more common in Muslim-majority countries. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/190 "2014-10-09T16:17:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This has nothing to do with anything I’m saying. It has everything to do with it and your refusal to answer only proves my point. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/191 "2014-10-09T16:18:15Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > It has everything to do with it and your refusal to answer only proves my point. No it doesn’t. The fact that those countries treat various groups poorly, on average, does nothing to refute my point. You’re just not getting my point. Maybe it’s my fault, but you’re not getting it. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/192 "2014-10-09T16:18:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As long as you qualify it properly, I’m fine with this, and it doesn’t contradict anything I’ve said. There are absolutely many serious problems in many Muslim-majority countries. There are many problems that are more common in Muslim-majority countries. yes but the point is it is the RELIGIOUS INFLUENCE that makes these problems exist. Ever hear of anyone getting stoned to death for adultery in a NON MUSLIM COUNTRY? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/193 "2014-10-09T16:19:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My point, by the way, has nothing to do with who or what can be considered “legitimately” Muslim. That doesn’t matter at all to me. The problem I have is with blanket negative statements that malign millions when there are numerous exceptions within those groups. Just like “blacks are more violent” is a bigoted statement, “Muslims are more violent” is also a bigoted statement. “The statistics show that black people have a higher representation among those convicted of crimes” is not a bigoted statements, and neither is the same about Muslims and terrorism, for example. But those are different statements. > > Just like “black people are less intelligent on average” is a bigoted statement, but “the statistics show that black people score lower, on average, on some academic tests” is not bigoted. The first does not follow, necessarily, from the second, in addition to being one of those blanket-negative-statements that is _always bigoted_, in my view. > > But it’s always possible I’m not doing a good job of making my point. I’d be happy to try and explain better if you show me exactly where you think I’m going wrong. You’ve made your point just fine. **My point** is that you’re arguing against something that no one is doing. You’re taking umbrage with every instance, even if it’s only _percieved_, of the use of the word “Muslim” that doesn’t contain qualifiers, even if the qualifiers were used previously. Also you seem to be miscontruing arguments against some of the forms of religion of Islam as being against all of the people who practice it. Your posts also come across as denying that the religion itself commands it’s followers to do things that are reprehensible and unacceptable to the majority of the planet’s human residents. Then you handwave away the fact that millions, even hundreds of millions of people accept and condone and _would act in furtherance of_ formalized government policies that mandate violence and death for apostates, blasphemers, etc. You seem to be handwaving away a lot of facts with an unsupported cry of “bigotry!”. Your posts seem to take every instance, real or percieved, of a semantic problem and then you use that to try and characterize a post or poster as bigoted and thus worthy of dismissal. This tactic is making your posts look more and more intransigent and somewhat incoherent. Earlier there was a comparison of Islam and communism; you dodged the question presented and tried to say they were different things, but the truth is they are different versions of the same thing: an idealogy. And people aren’t born with an idealogy like they’re born with skin color; they have to choose to have it. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/194 "2014-10-09T16:23:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No it doesn’t. The fact that those countries treat various groups poorly, on average, does nothing to refute my point. You’re just not getting my point. Maybe it’s my fault, but you’re not getting it. I get your point!!! You don’t want me to say anything bad about Muslims!!! Your position would be admirable, if, it were not so far removed from the truth. Look, in the 1800’s, both the Abolitionists (predominately) and the Slave Owners were christians. They got their inspiration from the SAME BOOK. I’m not so concerned about a book that inspires people to do good things, good, that’s great. What i am concerned about is a book that gives people motivation, and justification, to do horrible things. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/195 "2014-10-09T16:26:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think it’s different with religion, considering how diverse religions usually are (and this one in particular is). Sorry but that makes almost no sense. There are many forms of socialism; does that mean we can’t refer to any of them as “socialism”? > [@iiandyii](#): > > If they’re saying “conservative Muslims who believe women should be oppressed are wrong” then that’s fine, to me, and not bigoted. But, IIRC, I’ve heard Bill Maher say things like “Muslims are more violent”, or “Muslims oppress women”, or **“Islam oppresses women”, which is a blanket negative (and false, because there are obviously exceptions) statement**, and a bigoted one. The fact that there are exceptions doesn’t invalidate the statement. “Police officers shoot people.” “Well, obviously that’s not true because not all police officers shoot people.” “WTF???” You’re spending a lot of effort doing pointless semantic twists, IMO. ETA: For instance, the fact that a Muslim isn’t doing something that the Koran and/or his religious leaders tell him to do isn’t evidence that Islam doesn’t involve those things anymore than a Catholic committing a sin means that Catholicism doesn’t include directive to not do those things that are labeled as “sinful”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/196 "2014-10-09T16:31:13Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > You’ve made your point just fine. **My point** is that you’re arguing against something that no one is doing. You don’t think **Robert163** is doing it? > [@](#): > > You’re taking umbrage with every instance, even if it’s only _percieved_, of the use of the word “Muslim” that doesn’t contain qualifiers, even if the qualifiers were used previously. Sometimes I might miss past statements, but to me “Muslims are X” is a _very different statement_ than “some Muslims are X”. > [@](#): > > Also you seem to be miscontruing arguments against some of the forms of religion of Islam as being against all of the people who practice it. If so, then I apologize. > [@](#): > > Your posts also come across as denying that the religion itself commands it’s followers to do things that are reprehensible and unacceptable to the majority of the planet’s human residents. “Islam” doesn’t do this. Some forms of Islam do. Some Muslims do. But there’s no single “pure” form of Islam that commands murder, any more than there’s a single pure form of Christianity that commands murder of abortion doctors. > [@](#): > > Then you handwave away the fact that millions, even hundreds of millions of people accept and condone and _would act in furtherance of_ formalized government policies that mandate violence and death for apostates, blasphemers, etc. I don’t think I handwave it away – this is a serious problem, though I don’t read into poll results of countries like Egypt that this means most of the country are potential murderers. It’s definitely a bad thing, and says a bad thing about those that answer “yes”, that a big chunk of various Muslims say that apostates should be executed. > [@](#): > > You seem to be handwaving away a lot of facts with an unsupported cry of “bigotry!”. I’m pretty sure I haven’t denied any factual statements. If you disagree, please point them out to me. > [@](#): > > Your posts seem to take every instance, real or percieved, of a semantic problem and then you use that to try and characterize a post or poster as bigoted and thus worthy of dismissal. This tactic is making your posts look more and more intransigent and somewhat incoherent. Obviously I don’t think this is the case. I truly believe it’s different when people say “black people are X” or “Muslims are X” or “Islam is X”, when it’s a blanket negative statements. Such statements are _always false_, and _always bigoted_ because there are always tons of exceptions. > [@](#): > > Earlier there was a comparison of Islam and communism; you dodged the question presented and tried to say they were different things, but the truth is they are different versions of the same thing: an idealogy. And people aren’t born with an idealogy like they’re born with skin color; they have to choose to have it. There are certainly ideologies within Islam. There are political ideologies that spring from certain forms of Islam, as there are for every religion. But Islam is not an ideology, at least not any differently than any other religion as an ideology. Certainly some forms of Islam mandate certain political ideologies. But this is not nearly the same thing as Islam being a political ideology comparable to Communism. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/197 "2014-10-09T16:32:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s just as possible to be bigoted against a religious group as it is to be bigoted against an ethnic or racial group. This is true, but it ignores that religion is a choice. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/198 "2014-10-09T16:32:16Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I get your point!!! You don’t want me to say anything bad about Muslims!!! Your position would be admirable, if, it were not so far removed from the truth. You can say anything you like about Muslims. If you make sweeping, blanket, negative statements about Muslims as a group or Islam as a religion, then I will call it bigoted. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/199 "2014-10-09T16:33:40Z")
You’re willfully ignoring the social context of those comments. If I keep talking about how black people are disproportionately likely to commit crimes and score lower on standardized tests, without any further discussion of context or why I think this is important or what we should do about it, you are safe in inferring that I am a racist. The same is true for people who talk about how Muslims across the world have higher support for stoning adulterers, etc. Without more context, the safe inference is that these people are bigots who think there’s something intrinsic to the Quran or to being a Muslim that makes people disproportionately violent or regressive. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/200 "2014-10-09T16:35:53Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Sorry but that makes almost no sense. There are many forms of socialism; does that mean we can’t refer to any of them as “socialism”? > > The fact that there are exceptions doesn’t invalidate the statement. > > “Police officers shoot people.” > “Well, obviously that’s not true because not all police officers shoot people.” > “WTF???” > > You’re spending a lot of effort doing pointless semantic twists, IMO. I’d criticize that statement as well, by the way. > [@](#): > > ETA: For instance, the fact that a Muslim isn’t doing something that the Koran and/or his religious leaders tell him to do isn’t evidence that Islam doesn’t involve those things anymore than a Catholic committing a sin means that Catholicism doesn’t include directive to not do those things that are labeled as “sinful”. I think this is the big point of contention here. There’s nothing in the Koran that’s worse than some specific text in the Bible. The holy texts and religious practices could be swapped wholesale, and people could just as easily find religious justification in the Bible for terrorism, oppressing women, death to apostates, etc., as in the Koran. The Koran is not special. The geopolitical circumstances of the Middle East are special. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589.md?page=11)