# Where do you stand on the Bill Maher/Ben Affleck argument? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589 "2014-10-06T21:01:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/201 "2014-10-09T16:37:00Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > This is true, but it ignores that religion is a choice. I don’t think so. Hatred and mistreatment of homosexuals is bigoted regardless of whether homosexuality is a choice. It doesn’t matter if something is a choice in that regard, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/202 "2014-10-09T16:39:58Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > You’re willfully ignoring the social context of those comments. > > If I keep talking about how black people are disproportionately likely to commit crimes and score lower on standardized tests, without any further discussion of context or why I think this is important or what we should do about it, you are safe in inferring that I am a racist. If someone asserts “black people are less intelligent”, then that’s a bigoted statement regardless of context. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/203 "2014-10-09T16:40:02Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > yes but the point is it is the RELIGIOUS INFLUENCE that makes these problems exist. Ever hear of anyone getting stoned to death for adultery in a NON MUSLIM COUNTRY? That’s far from clear. Non-majority Muslim nations that share other characteristics that many majority-Muslim possess (such as a history of colonialism, poverty, corrupt and authoritarian governments, lack of literacy and education, and tribalism) exhibit similar problems, such as the oppression of women and terrorist violence. On what basis do you conclude that the popular religion, as opposed to those other factors, is what causes these issues? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/204 "2014-10-09T16:40:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “Islam” doesn’t do this. Some forms of Islam do. Some Muslims do. But there’s no single “pure” form of Islam that commands murder, any more than there’s a single pure form of Christianity that commands murder of abortion doctors. You know how you keep saying we “don’t get” what you are saying. Here is what we are saying, or, at least what I am saying. When you have a country that is predominately Muslim, bad things happen. Now, you want to say, well, some groups in those countries are treated poorly, but that is just rationalization and BS. I reject the idea that there are different “forms” of Islam. What there is, are laws and customs in the USA and Europe that make it pretty much impossible for Islam to function the way it does in the Middle East. Muslims in the USA and Europe WILL BE more open minded and tolerant, BUT, that is a function of them growing up in the USA or in Europe, in a more tolerant society. It’s not like they have a different copy of the Koran than the one that is used in Saudi Arabia!!! Same book, both places. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/205 "2014-10-09T16:42:36Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That’s far from clear. Non-majority Muslim nations that share other characteristics that many majority-Muslim possess (such as a history of colonialism, poverty, corrupt and authoritarian governments, lack of literacy and education, and tribalism) exhibit similar problems, such as the oppression of women and terrorist violence. On what basis do you conclude that the popular religion, as opposed to those other factors, is what causes these issues? Find me some examples of people being stoned to death in a non Muslim country. Find me an example of a non Muslim country where women can’t drive, own property, have jobs or get an education. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/206 "2014-10-09T16:43:58Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > You know how you keep saying we “don’t get” what you are saying. Here is what we are saying, or, at least what I am saying. When you have a country that is predominately Muslim, bad things happen. Now, you want to say, well, some groups in those countries are treated poorly, but that is just rationalization and BS. > > I reject the idea that there are different “forms” of Islam. What there is, are laws and customs in the USA and Europe that make it pretty much impossible for Islam to function the way it does in the Middle East. Muslims in the USA and Europe WILL BE more open minded and tolerant, BUT, that is a function of them growing up in the USA or in Europe, in a more tolerant society. It’s not like they have a different copy of the Koran than the one that is used in Saudi Arabia!!! Same book, both places. I’ll hold this up as an example of the type of bigoted assertions that I am arguing against. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/207 "2014-10-09T16:47:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll hold this up as an example of the type of bigoted assertions that I am arguing against. You know, if you weren’t so concerned about making sure I wasn’t a bigot, you might be able to actually comprehend and debate the points I am making. Because thus far you haven’t responded to any, apart from hand waving and semantics. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/208 "2014-10-09T16:56:47Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Find me some examples of people being stoned to death in a non Muslim country. Find me an example of a non Muslim country where women can’t drive, own property, have jobs or get an education. That’s a non-answer. Honor killings over spurious non-crimes like adultery occur in non-majority-Muslim cultures, such as [amongst Hindus and Sikhs in India.](http://www.islamawareness.net/HonourKilling/outside.html) The precise method of killing isn’t particularly meaningful. At least as of 2003, women in majority-Christian [Kenya](http://www.caledonia.org.uk/land/okello.htm) couldn’t own property. How do you explain majority-Muslim nations like Turkey where women _can_ do all those things, in light of your “only one form of Islam” stance? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/209 "2014-10-09T16:58:54Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > If you were a homosexual, female, atheist, would you want to live in any of these countries: > > Libya > Somalia > Tunisia > Yemen > Oman > UAE > Saudi Arabia > Jordan > Lebanon > Turkey > Syria > Iraq > Iran > Afghanistan > Pakistan Nobody wants to live in Somalia, Libya, or Afghanistan, regardless. They’re failed states. And what’s so bad about Turkey? What you’re overlooking is the fact that the populations of these countries are not homogenous. There are more cosmopolitan areas in, say, Iran, that a homosexual female atheist manic pixie dream girl could probably exist in and be more or less satisfied with life. The same dynamic exists anywhere you go in the world. A homosexual female atheist probably would prefer not to live in Odessa, TX, when she could live in Austin. Also, many of those states are in and around the Middle East, a region that seems to be going through its own version of the Thirty Years War. Is that happening solely because of the malign influence of Islam? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/210 "2014-10-09T17:01:06Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That’s a non-answer. Honor killings over spurious non-crimes like adultery occur in non-majority-Muslim cultures, such as [amongst Hindus and Sikhs in India.](http://www.islamawareness.net/HonourKilling/outside.html) The precise method of killing isn’t particularly meaningful. > > At least as of 2003, women in majority-Christian [Kenya](http://www.caledonia.org.uk/land/okello.htm) couldn’t own property. > > How do you explain majority-Muslim nations like Turkey where women _can_ do all those things, in light of your “only one form of Islam” stance? Yes but do they have public stonings??? And you found one example, ten years old, of a country where women can’t hold property. I bet women can’t hold property in at least HALF of these countries: Libya Somalia Tunisia Yemen Oman UAE Saudi Arabia Jordan Lebanon Turkey Syria Iraq Iran Afghanistan Pakistan And to answer your point about Turkey, Turkey is heavily influenced by it’s proximity to Europe. Which strengthens my case, not yours. Also, I never said bad things happen only in Muslim countries and no where else. I’m saying when you add the religious influence it makes it worse. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/211 "2014-10-09T17:01:33Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > You know, if you weren’t so concerned about making sure I wasn’t a bigot, you might be able to actually comprehend and debate the points I am making. Because thus far you haven’t responded to any, apart from hand waving and semantics. I don’t know if you’re a bigot. I try to avoid labeling people as such. I think you’ve said some bigoted things. I probably have too, at some point in my life. I strive to not say bigoted things, as I think all people should. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/212 "2014-10-09T17:01:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You don’t think **Robert163** is doing it? No, I don’t. I think he, like Bill Maher, has been clear that he only has a problem with Muslim who wish to kill apostates, blashpemers, infidels, etc. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Sometimes I might miss past statements, but to me “Muslims are X” is a _very different statement_ than “some Muslims are X”. I don’t think anyone has disagreed with that sentiment; it’s possible I skipped over a post, tho so I’m open to being shown that I’m incorrect. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If so, then I apologize. Ok. 🙂 > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “Islam” doesn’t do this. Some forms of Islam do. Some Muslims do. But there’s no single “pure” form of Islam that commands murder, any more than there’s a single pure form of Christianity that commands murder of abortion doctors. So which versions of the Koran have had the passages about killing all infidels removed and denounced? The bible does command followers to do a bunch of shitty things. IMO it’s fair to say that the things in the bible are Christian writings. Would you agree with that statement? If not, why not? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think I handwave it away – this is a serious problem, though I don’t read into poll results of countries like Egypt that this means most of the country are potential murderers. It’s definitely a bad thing, and says a bad thing about those that answer “yes”, that a big chunk of various Muslims say that apostates should be executed. Dude, you just handwaved it away right there. Alvin: “Would you kill an infidel or support people who were killing infidels?” Bill: “Yes.” Calvin: “Well, clearly this man isn’t a murderer or someone who supports murder for people who do not choose to follow Islam.” David: “WTF???” Why do you choose to discount or ignore statements of intent or desire here? Is it because they contradict they way you wish that things would be? That’s how it’s coming across. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m pretty sure I haven’t denied any factual statements. If you disagree, please point them out to me. Well, you’re ignoring or denying what all those Egyptian poll respondents said. Why? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Obviously I don’t think this is the case. I truly believe it’s different when people say “black people are X” or “Muslims are X” or “Islam is X”, when it’s a blanket negative statements. Such statements are _always false_, and _always bigoted_ because there are always tons of exceptions. So how is the statement “police officers shoot and kill innocent people” invalidated by the fact that not all police officers shoot and kill innocent people? I can’t even wrap my head around what semantic leaps and contortions you seem to be going through to reach your desired conclusion. For the record, it’s NOT FALSE that police officers shoot and kill innocent people. And the fact that not all police officers shoot and kill innocent people DOES NOT invalidate the statement. Muslims kill people. Muslims are terrorists. The fact that the number of Muslims who do those things is less than 100% has no bearing on the accuracy of the statement. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There are certainly ideologies within Islam. There are political ideologies that spring from certain forms of Islam, as there are for every religion. But Islam is not an ideology, at least not any differently than any other religion as an ideology. Certainly some forms of Islam mandate certain political ideologies. But this is not nearly the same thing as Islam being a political ideology comparable to Communism. Okay, if you’re going to seriously write the phrase “Islam is not an idealogy”, you’re going to have a difficult time communicating effectively in this discussion, IMO. The qualifier you placed after that doesn’t mitigate the phrase’s illogic in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/213 "2014-10-09T17:02:45Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > There are more cosmopolitan areas in, say, Iran, that a homosexual female atheist manic pixie dream girl could probably exist in and be more or less satisfied with life. Could you tell me where you get this idea from? I can’t say 100% you are wrong but I am very skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/214 "2014-10-09T17:03:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think so. Hatred and mistreatment of homosexuals is bigoted regardless of whether homosexuality is a choice. It doesn’t matter if something is a choice in that regard, in my opinion. Well, IMO, bigotry against choices people make is fine. Do you disagree with that? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/215 "2014-10-09T17:06:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t know if you’re a bigot. I try to avoid labeling people as such. I think you’ve said some bigoted things. I probably have too, at some point in my life. I strive to not say bigoted things, as I think all people should. Not the point!!! How do you account for the fact that in Westernized countries, with human rights and democracy, Islam is a relatively benign entity, BUT, in places where Muslims are the majority, they, as you say, “treat some groups of people badly very much of the time”. Where they can exercise such excessive, violent power, they do. How is this not indicative of a very, very, very, very bad system of thought? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/216 "2014-10-09T17:07:46Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Could you tell me where you get this idea from? I can’t say 100% you are wrong but I am very skeptical. Persian culture has existed longer than Islam. Do you think the whole country is just angry dudes waving scimitars in the air? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/217 "2014-10-09T17:09:45Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, I don’t. I think he, like Bill Maher, has been clear that he only has a problem with Muslim who wish to kill apostates, blashpemers, infidels, etc. Have you read his most recent posts? > [@](#): > > So which versions of the Koran have had the passages about killing all infidels removed and denounced? > > The bible does command followers to do a bunch of shitty things. IMO it’s fair to say that the things in the bible are Christian writings. Would you agree with that statement? If not, why not? I’ll repeat what I said earlier: I think this is the big point of contention here. There’s nothing in the Koran that’s worse than some specific text in the Bible. The holy texts and religious practices could be swapped wholesale, and people could just as easily find religious justification in the Bible for terrorism, oppressing women, death to apostates, etc., as in the Koran. The Koran is not special. The geopolitical circumstances of the Middle East are special. > [@](#): > > Dude, you just handwaved it away right there. > > Alvin: “Would you kill an infidel or support people who were killing infidels?” > Bill: “Yes.” > Calvin: “Well, clearly this man isn’t a murderer or someone who supports murder for people who do not choose to follow Islam.” > David: “WTF???” > > Why do you choose to discount or ignore statements of intent or desire here? Is it because they contradict they way you wish that things would be? That’s how it’s coming across. > > Well, you’re ignoring or denying what all those Egyptian poll respondents said. Why? No, they definitely said it, according to the poll. And they’re very troublingly wrong. > [@](#): > > So how is the statement “police officers shoot and kill innocent people” invalidated by the fact that not all police officers shoot and kill innocent people? I can’t even wrap my head around what semantic leaps and contortions you seem to be going through to reach your desired conclusion. Maybe it’s inflection and context. Sometimes “some” is probably implied and I just miss it. > [@](#): > > Muslims kill people. Muslims are terrorists. The fact that the number of Muslims who do those things is less than 100% has no bearing on the accuracy of the statement. These are examples of the implied “some”, I believe. If “some” is implied, then it’s probably not false and bigoted. Bill Maher (and others) have said it in a way that I believe did _not_ include that implied “some”. > [@](#): > > Okay, if you’re going to seriously write the phrase “Islam is not an idealogy”, you’re going to have a difficult time communicating effectively in this discussion, IMO. The qualifier you placed after that doesn’t mitigate the phrase’s illogic in any way. It’s a religious ideology, and there are definitely political ideologies that spring up from certain forms if Islam, but Islam is not a politicial ideology like communism. Comparing them sounds like those Oklahoma wackjobs who say “Islam is not a religion, it’s a political ideology, therefore it doesn’t deserve 1st amendment protection”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/218 "2014-10-09T17:11:18Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Well, IMO, bigotry against choices people make is fine. Do you disagree with that? I absolutely disagree, if those choices include things like religious beliefs or adult sexual partners. Bigotry against people in interracial couples, which is _definitely_ a choice, is definitely wrong. I don’t mean choices like murder and rape, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/219 "2014-10-09T17:11:48Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Persian culture has existed longer than Islam. Do you think the whole country is just angry dudes waving scimitars in the air? 1- I meant, have you visited the country or have you read up on cosmopolitan life in Iran. 2- If there are a few areas in the country where an Atheist, homosexual, female could live openly, what that really means is, that in most of the country, they couldn’t. which kind of proves my point to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/220 "2014-10-09T17:13:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’d criticize that statement as well, by the way. Well, your criticism would likely be wrong, as I demonstrated in my previous post. > [@iiandyii](#): > > I think this is the big point of contention here. There’s nothing in the Koran that’s worse than some specific text in the Bible. The holy texts and religious practices could be swapped wholesale, and people could just as easily find religious justification in the Bible for terrorism, oppressing women, death to apostates, etc., as in the Koran. The Koran is not special. The geopolitical circumstances of the Middle East are special. Right, and one of the geopolitial circumstances of the Middle East is that a large number of people are followers of a book with some nasty instructions _that they believe and are willing, even eager, to follow._ The fact that there is another book that also urges people to do bad shit doesn’t mean the Koran doesn’t exhort followers to do bad shit. And the immediate problem is that too many people, IMO, are trying to do the bad shit they are directed to do by the Koran. And to them, they are directed by the single most powerful force in all of existence to do these things, since the Koran is, like the Bible is to Christians, the words of their god. So the Koran is special, in that at this moment in history, it’s the only book with those instructions to followers _that has large numbers of followers willing and eager to carry out those instructions_. The Koran is being used to justify political recriminations; politics isn’t being used to justify Islamic recriminations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589.md?page=12)