# Where do you stand on the Bill Maher/Ben Affleck argument? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589 "2014-10-06T21:01:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/241 "2014-10-09T17:34:26Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > You’re pretty sure, huh? Based on what? Maybe the fact that it is illegal and dangerous? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/242 "2014-10-09T17:36:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It sucks. So does the Bible. So do all other religious texts that I’ve ever come across. They all suck, in my opinion, both as teachings of how the world works and how people should behave. Then why are you defending it ?!?!?!?!?! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/243 "2014-10-09T17:40:37Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I have, and I still am not seeing anything in his posts that approaches anything that could reasonably be called bigotry. You are, as **Richard Parker** mentioned, ignoring context completely where said context does not support your view of bigotry, IMO. I don’t see much context in **Robert163** ’s posts beyond “Islam is bad and Muslims are only good when they’re in the minority”. > [@](#): > > And the fact that it’s THIS book and not THAT book is special too. If they used _Huckleberry Finn_ to justify their violence, I’d want to take a look at what that book said, too, and denounce as shitty and immoral any shitty and immoral directives it contained. But they don’t use _Huckleberry Finn_, they use the Koran. I don’t really even know what this means. > [@](#): > > They don’t believe what they said they believe? WTF? How do you know that?? :? Huh? > [@](#): > > Okay, let’s try this: I do not want to kill or destroy all Muslims. I do want to speak out against and criticize those Muslims who do want to kill or destroy me and/or my country, my society, my culture and my civilization. IF I now fail to specify “those Muslims who do want to kill or destroy me and/or my country, my society, my culture and my civilization”, will you please extend a perception of good faith and understand that my failure to offer qualifying and clarifying phrases was not, in any way, meant to extend my criticism past those who I have already stipulated are the subject of my disagreements? I will try. > [@](#): > > I believe that failure to perceive that is entirely on you; Bill Maher, like the posters you’ve currently been engaging, made it clear over and over that he was not talking about 100% of Muslims. It’s possible, though from my memory he reverses himself almost sentence-to-sentence in a few cases – something like “We’re not saying all Muslims are evil” then Affleck says “no, you’re just saying they want to kill us and oppress women” then Maher says “well yes, they are!”, or something like that. > [@](#): > > I never said that Islam was a political idealogy. No one did. I did say it is an idealogy, and it is. Most of your last paragraph there is you arguing against strawmen in your head and not against anything anyone actually said. You were comparing it to communism, which is a political ideology. I don’t think such a political ideology can be compared to a religious ideology. Communism can be compared to democracy, or capitalism, but not a religion, in my opinion. > [@](#): > > If you don’t see any reason to examine an idealogy’s effect on the people who espouse adherence to said idealogy, then again, IMO, you’re going to have a difficult time communicating effectively in this discussion. I think this is a very interesting discussion to have. I’m very interested in the religious ideology (and political ideology) of those who want to kill us. It’s just a different ideology from many other Muslims. There is no single Muslim ideology, any more than there is a single Christian ideology. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/244 "2014-10-09T17:41:43Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Then why are you defending it ?!?!?!?!?! I’m not. It definitely sucks. It’s just not special in any way, in my view. Just another religious text, just another holy book. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/245 "2014-10-09T17:42:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not. It definitely sucks. It’s just not special in any way, in my view. Just another religious text, just another holy book. Still not going to answer what country you’d rather live in if you were a atheist homosexual female, are you??? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/246 "2014-10-09T17:44:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I absolutely disagree, if those choices include things like religious beliefs or adult sexual partners. Bigotry against people in interracial couples, which is _definitely_ a choice, is definitely wrong. > > I don’t mean choices like murder and rape, obviously. I disagree. Bigotry against choices people make, that is, a severe and intractable dislike for things people choose, is fine. Because that bigotry is a choice, and can be changed. Actions based on that bigotry may or may not be acceptable, but the bigotry is a human condition that you aren’t going to eradicate. Bigotry against things that people have no control over and no choice in is, IMO, wrong. But disliking the things that people choose to do or say or believe in? That’s fair game to me. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/247 "2014-10-09T17:45:50Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m out of this one, I don’t think I’m making any headway and after typing the same thing three times I’m guessing it isn’t going to sink it, but before I go I going to disagree with the above. > > I’m not bothered about _any_ choice that\* anyone\* makes, not the thoughts they hold in their head or the beliefs that keep them warm. It matters not one jot to me. > However, the moment someone chooses to act on those opinions and cause harm, distress or misery to another person then damn right I’ll be against it. > > And if they hold up a religious justification for it I’ll say “fuck you”, loudly and longly. That isn’t a free pass. In fact, you didn’t disagree with my statement at all (see above). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/248 "2014-10-09T17:46:47Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Still not going to answer what country you’d rather live in if you were a atheist homosexual female, are you??? Again, my answer is Turkey. For the Doner. It’s really tasty. You should try it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/249 "2014-10-09T17:49:08Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I disagree. Bigotry against choices people make, that is, a severe and intractable dislike for things people choose, is fine. Because that bigotry is a choice, and can be changed. > > Actions based on that bigotry may or may not be acceptable, but the bigotry is a human condition that you aren’t going to eradicate. > > Bigotry against things that people have no control over and no choice in is, IMO, wrong. But disliking the things that people choose to do or say or believe in? That’s fair game to me. What do you mean by “fair game”? It’s certainly fair game, in the sense that I don’t think we should legislate against bigoted beliefs, or against bigoted actions in one’s personal life. But it seems we disagree here on what’s morally wrong (which is absolutely fine!). To me, bigotry against a choice like a religion is just as “bad” as bigotry against a choice like interracial relationships, or against something that’s not a choice like sexual orientation. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/250 "2014-10-09T17:50:09Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I disagree. Bigotry against choices people make, that is, a severe and intractable dislike for things people choose, is fine. Because that bigotry is a choice, and can be changed. > > Actions based on that bigotry may or may not be acceptable, but the bigotry is a human condition that you aren’t going to eradicate. > > Bigotry against things that people have no control over and no choice in is, IMO, wrong. But disliking the things that people choose to do or say or believe in? That’s fair game to me. I think this is the point. If it is 1957 and I am a Black Man driving across Alabama late at night, I’m not all that concerned with the nice White People living there, I am concerned about all of the rest. Same in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. Are the good people who live in those two countries? There most certainly are, lots and lots and lots of them. But it the overall mentality of the region - as a whole - that concerns me, not the good people who live there that don’t match the stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/251 "2014-10-09T17:51:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Again, my answer is Turkey. For the Doner. It’s really tasty. You should try it. Which is a smart ass response, which only proves that I am right. Why would you act in such a manner? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/252 "2014-10-09T17:52:36Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes but do they have public stonings??? Again, the precise method of murder isn’t meaningful. > [@](#): > > And you found one example, ten years old, of a country where women can’t hold property. As of last year, women in Kenya are still fighting for their rights to own and inherit property. Tanzania is the same. The third world isn’t kind to women, be they Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Sikh, animist… > [@](#): > > I bet women can’t hold property in at least HALF of these countries: > Libya > Somalia > Tunisia > Yemen > Oman > UAE > Saudi Arabia > Jordan > Lebanon > Turkey > Syria > Iraq > Iran > Afghanistan > Pakistan Unsurprising to learn that you haven’t even researched this. > [@](#): > > And to answer your point about Turkey, Turkey is heavily influenced by it’s proximity to Europe. Which strengthens my case, not yours. Also, I never said bad things happen only in Muslim countries and no where else. I’m saying when you add the religious influence it makes it worse. Turkey completely undermines your case. You said that there’s only one form of Islam, and that “bad things” happen in Muslim countries. Turkey is majority Muslim, and is largely free of the “bad things” you’ve pointed to. So either there _are_ multiple forms of Islam, or religion doesn’t actually have much to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/253 "2014-10-09T17:56:40Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Again, the precise method of murder isn’t meaningful. I bet you it is to the people being stoned to death > [@](#): > > As of last year, women in Kenya are still fighting for their rights to own and inherit property. Tanzania is the same. The third world isn’t kind to women, be they Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Sikh, animist… And are they permitted from getting an education, having a job, driving a car, dressing as they wish? > [@](#): > > Turkey completely undermines your case. You said that there’s only one form of Islam, and that “bad things” happen in Muslim countries. Turkey is majority Muslim, and is largely free of the “bad things” you’ve pointed to. So either there _are_ multiple forms of Islam, or religion doesn’t actually have much to do with it. lol, No! Turkey is on the list of places I would not want to live if I were Female, Homosexual, or Atheist. I never said it was as bad as Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/254 "2014-10-09T17:56:44Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Which is a smart ass response, which only proves that I am right. “Smart ass response” is not logically followed by “you are correct”. > [@](#): > > Why would you act in such a manner? Because I think your question is irrelevant to the point I’m making, and only serves as a distraction. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/255 "2014-10-09T18:11:19Z")
I know plenty of Muslims who are perfectly peaceful and think Maher is full of shit. I don’t know a single Muslim who calls for violence. Not a single f’in one. I can’t say the same about Christians or Jews. I know plenty of both who endorse violence against Islam. Now, my sample is skewed. I also know plenty of Christians and Jews who are against religious violence. History is replete with people who insincerely, and sincerely, use religion to justify their evil actions. And if those people were atheists or of another religion, they would adopt another justification, be it another religion or another reason. Religion is not the cause of all evil in the world, but rather a cultural bystander invoked by the power hungry without any say so. The Middle East (from our point of view) isn’t a violent and dangerous place due to religion, but rather due to the extreme desperation of the populations combined with they psychopathic outliers of humanity who seize well on that sort of thing. Every culture has its outcasts and its fringe nuts who want a following of sycophants. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/256 "2014-10-09T18:20:22Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I bet you it is to the people being stoned to death Meaning what, if they were to be hanged or stabbed, they’d be fine with it? > [@](#): > > And are they permitted from getting an education, having a job, driving a car, dressing as they wish? Let’s ask [UNESCO:](http://www.unesco.org/eri/cp/factsheets_ed/KE_EDFactSheet.pdf) > [@](#): > > Over the last decade, Kenya has made significant progress in education, achieving gender parity in primary education enrollment and near parity at secondary level. However, as the above data show, gender parity does not mean that universal access to primary education has been achieved and enrolment in secondary education remains low for both boys (51%) and girls (48%). This is of a particular concern for girls, as the data imply, over half of secondary school-age girls are not enrolled in secondary education. Serious question: what proportion of majority-Muslim countries do you think prohibit women from going to school and driving cars? > [@](#): > > lol, No! > > Turkey is on the list of places I would not want to live if I were Female, Homosexual, or Atheist. I never said it was as bad as Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. That list would be pretty short; as I’m sure you know, tolerant, secular democracies are the exception, not the rule. Again, the connection between this and Islam remains totally unsubstantiated by you. Bear in mind that there are tolerant, secular democracies which are highly religious (the U.S.) and others which are highly irreligious (France). ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/257 "2014-10-09T18:29:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “Smart ass response” is not logically followed by “you are correct”. > > Because I think your question is irrelevant to the point I’m making, and only serves as a distraction. It’s not relevant to you because it doesn’t fit your agenda. No Bigotry!!! How is it bigoted to point out that if you were a homosexual, female, atheist that you wouldn’t want to live in any of those countries on that list??? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/258 "2014-10-09T18:32:06Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > It’s not relevant to you because it doesn’t fit your agenda. No Bigotry!!! How is it bigoted to point out that if you were a homosexual, female, atheist that you wouldn’t want to live in any of those countries on that list??? It’s not bigoted, it’s irrelevant. Other things you have said I believe are bigoted, but not this one. This one is just irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/259 "2014-10-09T18:34:22Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Meaning what, if they were to be hanged or stabbed, they’d be fine with it? > > Let’s ask [UNESCO:](http://www.unesco.org/eri/cp/factsheets_ed/KE_EDFactSheet.pdf) > > Serious question: what proportion of majority-Muslim countries do you think prohibit women from going to school and driving cars? > > That list would be pretty short; as I’m sure you know, tolerant, secular democracies are the exception, not the rule. Again, the connection between this and Islam remains totally unsubstantiated by you. Bear in mind that there are tolerant, secular democracies which are highly religious (the U.S.) and others which are highly irreligious (France). we are wasting our time. for every objection or criticism i make about a Muslim majority country you are just going to go find some statistic from some other country or take some similar tactic. do you understand that changing the subject is not the same thing as adequately defending the quality of life in Libya, Saudi Arabia, Yemen or Afghanistan? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/260 "2014-10-09T18:35:37Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > we are wasting our time. for every objection or criticism i make about a Muslim majority country you are just going to go find some statistic from some other country or take some similar tactic. do you understand that changing the subject is not the same thing as adequately defending the quality of life in Libya, Saudi Arabia, Yemen or Afghanistan? Quality of life in those countries mostly sucks, especially for women. It’s not because of Islam or the Koran. It is at least partially because of the specific form of Islam enforced in those countries, and the specific interpretations of the Koran by the majority in those countries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589.md?page=14)