# Where do you stand on the Bill Maher/Ben Affleck argument? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589 "2014-10-06T21:01:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/261 "2014-10-09T18:35:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s not bigoted, it’s irrelevant. Other things you have said I believe are bigoted, but not this one. This one is just irrelevant. How is it irrelevant. My point is they are oppressive, fundamentalist countries. Proof of this claim is that you would not want to live there if you were Female, Atheist or Homosexual. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/262 "2014-10-09T18:36:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Quality of life in those countries mostly sucks, especially for women. It’s not because of Islam or the Koran. It is at least partially because of the specific form of Islam enforced in those countries, and the specific interpretations of the Koran by the majority in those countries. so, in other words, in these “limited” situations, a bad situation is made worse by religious influence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/263 "2014-10-09T18:37:45Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > How is it irrelevant. My point is they are oppressive, fundamentalist countries. Proof of this claim is that you would not want to live there if you were Female, Atheist or Homosexual. Yes, they are oppressive, fundamentalist countries (except for a few on your list). This is irrelevant to my point. They aren’t oppressive and fundamentalist because of the global religion of Islam. They are oppressive and fundamentalist at least partially because of the specific forms of Islam in which they practice and enforce. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/264 "2014-10-09T18:38:49Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > so, in other words, in these “limited” situations, a bad situation is made worse by religious influence. There are many, many situations – many more than just these – that are made worse by religious influence. In fact, I think most situations are made worse by religious influence. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/265 "2014-10-09T18:40:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, they are oppressive, fundamentalist countries (except for a few on your list). This is irrelevant to my point. They aren’t oppressive and fundamentalist because of the global religion of Islam. They are oppressive and fundamentalist at least partially because of the specific forms of Islam in which they practice and enforce. ok, well nice talking to you, goodbye, seriously, we are wasting our time. like i said, your whole agenda is to minimize and make excuses, even when you admit they are oppressive countries made worse by the “selective” use of the Koran. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/266 "2014-10-09T18:45:36Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > we are wasting our time. for every objection or criticism i make about a Muslim majority country you are just going to go find some statistic from some other country or take some similar tactic. Well, given your claim that Islam is to blame for these problems, demonstrating that they exist in nations with similar backgrounds but different religions neatly demolishes that claim. > [@](#): > > do you understand that changing the subject is not the same thing as adequately defending the quality of life in Libya, Saudi Arabia, Yemen or Afghanistan? Wait, is that what you think my point is, that everything’s hunky dory in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan? If so, you profoundly misunderstand me. The quality of life in Saudi Arabia et al is (for those outside the ruling regimes) unacceptably poor. However, _it is the normal state of affairs for human societies_. The default characteristics of our civilization include the oppression of women, the oppression of minorities, and cruel, arbitrary, authoritarian leadership. This predates all modern religions by thousands of years, mind you. It’s not as though women in the Middle East were voting and owning businesses, then Islam came along and ruined things, or that gay people had it great in AD 500. Luckily, there are ways to escape this predicament: Enlightenment values like democracy, secularism, and the rule of law. A lucky handful of nations, by virtue of their wealth, geography, and military power, were in a position to implement these values, and have greatly prospered for it. Other nations, like those in the Middle East and Africa, [have](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitioning_of_the_Ottoman_Empire) not [been](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa) so [fortunate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse), for a variety of reasons. Islam is not one of those reasons. If you persist in claiming that it is, you’ll need to first explain why the problems you’ve identified in majority-Muslim countries are mirrored in non-majority-Muslim countries with similar backgrounds of colonial exploitation, harsh geography, and the resource curse. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/267 "2014-10-09T18:47:05Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Turkey is on the list of places I would not want to live if I were Female, Homosexual, or Atheist. Neither is Alabama. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/268 "2014-10-09T18:50:45Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > ok, well nice talking to you, goodbye, seriously, we are wasting our time. like i said, your whole agenda is to minimize and make excuses, even when you admit they are oppressive countries made worse by the “selective” use of the Koran. I’m not “admitting” anything that hasn’t been part of my broader point from the beginning. It’s perfectly reasonable to criticize policies and practices in many of these countries. It’s wrong to characterize them as somehow more representative of the religion of Islam than the policies and practices of Muslims in, for example, Dearborn MI, or Istanbul, or Jakarta. Bad policies, violence, and oppression are part of the Muslim world, but they are also part of the non-Muslim world, and even part of the Christian world, to various extents. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/269 "2014-10-09T18:52:05Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Well, given your claim that Islam is to blame for these problems, demonstrating that they exist in nations with similar backgrounds but different religions neatly demolishes that claim. I guess it would if I said the only way women could be mistreated was by living in a Muslim country. Did I say that? No, I said it is much worse for a woman if you are living in a Muslim country. That you would think that I would think women didn’t have problems in Africa, South America, or Eastern Europe, is, a bit absurd. > [@](#): > > Wait, is that what you think my point is, that everything’s hunky dory in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan? If so, you profoundly misunderstand me. The quality of life in Saudi Arabia et al is (for those outside the ruling regimes) unacceptably poor. However, _it is the normal state of affairs for human societies_. The default characteristics of our civilization include the oppression of women, the oppression of minorities, and cruel, arbitrary, authoritarian leadership. This predates all modern religions by thousands of years, mind you. It’s not as though women in the Middle East were voting and owning businesses, then Islam came along and ruined things, or that gay people had it great in AD 500. > > Luckily, there are ways to escape this predicament: Enlightenment values like democracy, secularism, and the rule of law. A lucky handful of nations, by virtue of their wealth, geography, and military power, were in a position to implement these values, and have greatly prospered for it. Other nations, like those in the Middle East and Africa, [have](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitioning_of_the_Ottoman_Empire) not [been](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa) so [fortunate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse), for a variety of reasons. Islam is not one of those reasons. If you persist in claiming that it is, you’ll need to first explain why the problems you’ve identified in majority-Muslim countries are mirrored in non-majority-Muslim countries with similar backgrounds of colonial exploitation, harsh geography, and the resource curse. Right. So basically, we in the western world are living in a modern democracy and Libya, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, countries like that, are living 200 years in the past. OK, glad to see we are in agreement. Now, in these backwards ass countries, do you think the presence of a Islamic Theocracy helps improve things or makes them worse? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/270 "2014-10-09T18:55:33Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Right. > > So basically, we in the western world are living in a modern democracy and Libya, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, countries like that, are living 200 years in the past. OK, glad to see we are in agreement. Now, in these backwards ass countries, do you think the presence of a Islamic Theocracy helps improve things or makes them worse? Yes. Yes! I have found the point of agreement! Islamic theocracy sucks and is among the worst forms of government on the planet today. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/271 "2014-10-09T18:57:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not “admitting” anything that hasn’t been part of my broader point from the beginning. It’s perfectly reasonable to criticize policies and practices in many of these countries. It’s wrong to characterize them as somehow more representative of the religion of Islam than the policies and practices of Muslims in, for example, Dearborn MI, or Istanbul, or Jakarta. Bad policies, violence, and oppression are part of the Muslim world, but they are also part of the non-Muslim world, and even part of the Christian world, to various extents. OK, my last word on the topic. Calm down and actually think about what I am saying. If Islam practiced with no restraint and no regard, with no rules for lack of a better word, Islam practiced with no rules, if that Islam is violent, misogynistic and oppressive, then that means ISLAM ITSELF is violent, misogynistic and oppressive. You are so stuck on not making any negative stereotypes that you can’t examine this concept objectively. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/272 "2014-10-09T18:59:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not “admitting” anything that hasn’t been part of my broader point from the beginning. It’s perfectly reasonable to criticize policies and practices in many of these countries. It’s wrong to characterize them as somehow more representative of the religion of Islam than the policies and practices of Muslims in, for example, Dearborn MI, or Istanbul, or Jakarta. Bad policies, violence, and oppression are part of the Muslim world, but they are also part of the non-Muslim world, and even part of the Christian world, to various extents. Then we should expect to see people of other religions acting as mUslims do, correct. While barbaric Muslims do not have an exclusive on atrocity, they are responsible for the majority of it. You don’t hear about Christians grabbing girls walking home from school and cutting their heads off. You don’t hear about Buddhists flying planes into buildings or strapping bombs onto themselves and blowing up women and children. Why do you think that is? Dude, intentionally or not, you’re acting as an apologist for Islamic Extremism of the worst sort. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/273 "2014-10-09T18:59:37Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Neither is Alabama. What’s your point? Where would you rather live as a homosexual, atheist, female, Alabama USA or Libya? (I think the point is self evident) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/274 "2014-10-09T19:00:14Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > OK, my last word on the topic. Calm down and actually think about what I am saying. If Islam practiced with no restraint and no regard, with no rules for lack of a better word, Islam practiced with no rules, if that Islam is violent, misogynistic and oppressive, then that means ISLAM ITSELF is violent, misogynistic and oppressive. You are so stuck on not making any negative stereotypes that you can’t examine this concept objectively. If Dearborn MI Islam is practiced “unfettered”, then it would be fine. Dearborn MI Islam is not violent or oppressive. There are different types of Islam, and while theocracies are universally bad, Islam doesn’t necessarily lead to theocracy. No form of Islam is more or less “pure” than any other. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/275 "2014-10-09T19:02:05Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Then we should expect to see people of other religions acting as mUslims do, correct. I’m assuming an implied “some…” or “extreme…” before muslims here. But not necessarily. It depends on various geopolitical circumstances. I would expect some Christians and adherents of other religions in extreme strife-ridden countries (like, say, the Central African Republic) to behave the same way – and guess what? Some of them do! ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/276 "2014-10-09T19:09:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If Dearborn MI Islam is practiced “unfettered”, then it would be fine. Dearborn MI Islam is not violent or oppressive. There are different types of Islam, and while theocracies are universally bad, Islam doesn’t necessarily lead to theocracy. No form of Islam is more or less “pure” than any other. Dearborn MI Islam is not violent because Dearborn MI itself not violent, it is a culture of democracy, non violence and acceptance. but if Islam _really was_ a peaceful religion, it would take these areas with the POTENTIAL of violence and oppression and appease and soften them. but no, it makes them MORE violent and MORE oppressive. therefor it is itself violent and oppressive. You can make the argument that Islam “on paper” is peaceful, but the laboratory of the real world proves you wrong. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/277 "2014-10-09T19:12:26Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Dearborn MI Islam is not violent because Dearborn MI itself not violent, it is a culture of democracy, non violence and acceptance. but if Islam _really was_ a peaceful religion, it would take these areas with the POTENTIAL of violence and oppression and appease and soften them. but no, it makes them MORE violent and MORE oppressive. therefor it is itself violent and oppressive. You can make the argument that Islam “on paper” is peaceful, but the laboratory of the real world proves you wrong. I don’t think Islam, broadly is a “peaceful religion” (nor do I think any other religion, broadly, is). There are specific forms of every religion, including Islam, that are peaceful. The form practiced by most Muslims in Dearborn is peaceful, and would continue to be peaceful if Dearborn became an independent “Dearbornistan”. The form practiced by most Muslims in ISIS is not. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/278 "2014-10-09T19:26:39Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > In fact, you didn’t disagree with my statement at all (see above). Well sort of, I don’t care about the _choice_ itself, just any tangible actions that arise from it. But that may well be what you meant. In which case, no. I don’t disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/279 "2014-10-09T19:32:30Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I guess it would if I said the only way women could be mistreated was by living in a Muslim country. Did I say that? No, I said it is much worse for a woman if you are living in a Muslim country. That you would think that I would think women didn’t have problems in Africa, South America, or Eastern Europe, is, a bit absurd. I’ll freely admit to having trouble grasping your points. “Much worse”, eh? So a woman in Turkey is worse off than one in Kenya? And I’ll ask again: how many countries do you think prohibit women from going to school or driving cars? > [@](#): > > Right. > > So basically, we in the western world are living in a modern democracy and Libya, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, countries like that, are living 200 years in the past. OK, glad to see we are in agreement. To be fair to them, it’s not like the Western world and the rest of the world developed in a vacuum, and the Western folks happened to just be smarter or more moral. In addition to various geographical factors, there’s the fact that the Western powers spent centuries colonizing the MENA, then carved it up into artifical nation-states for their own purposes; states which were doomed to fail. How do you think Europe would be faring right now if it’d received such treatment? Eastern Europe got a taste of it from the Soviet Union, and it’s the most poverty-stricken and socially backward portion. \*This is not a coincidence. \* > [@](#): > > Now, in these backwards ass countries, do you think the presence of a Islamic Theocracy helps improve things or makes them worse? Iraq isn’t an Islamic theocracy; Libya’s barely a country at this point, and Afghanistan is transtioning from a theocracy to a secular dicatorship. That said, the answer is: an Islamic government isn’t particularly better or worse than other forms of tyranny. Iraq had a secular government, and had the same old third-world problems of state-sponsored murder, political repression, and corruption. Same with the Soviet Union. No, brutal autocratic regimes don’t help the nations they rule. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/280 "2014-10-09T19:33:48Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Dearborn MI Islam is not violent because Dearborn MI itself not violent, it is a culture of democracy, non violence and acceptance. but if Islam _really was_ a peaceful religion, it would take these areas with the POTENTIAL of violence and oppression and appease and soften them. but no, it makes them MORE violent and MORE oppressive. therefor it is itself violent and oppressive. You can make the argument that Islam “on paper” is peaceful, but the laboratory of the real world proves you wrong. Having grown up in SE Michigan near Dearborn, I really must know. Are you saying that the people living in Dearborn are not really practicing Islam? That Muslims in Dearborn are merely Muslims ''on paper"? That the only true Islam is the non-democratic and violent sort? And do you believe that Christianity is comparable to Islam in the way it exacerbates violence and oppression when it becomes theocratic? Do you think Christianity would soften and appease areas with the potential of violence and oppression? Can we not then argue that Christianity as it is practiced in the US is not truly Christianity, practical Christianity, or applied Christianity? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589.md?page=15)