# Where do you stand on the Bill Maher/Ben Affleck argument? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589 "2014-10-06T21:01:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/101 "2014-10-07T19:32:29Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Well, yes, exactly. I love your example because I think it absolutely makes my point. Maher and Harris are saying _“being a white Christian leads to things like the KKK, and if we say that, we are called racist.”_ and Affleck is saying (or trying to say) _“Well, yeah. That’s because that’s a very racist point of view.”_ But _is_ that what Maher and Harris said? Can you provide any quotations that support the idea that they claimed that simply being Muslim “leads to” extremism? I watched the show; like others here, I’ve found snippets of quotations online (though not yet a whole transcript). I do see Maher and Harris saying things along the lines of: larger proportions of Muslim people believe in death as an appropriate penalty for leaving Islam, than is generally reported. But I don’t see anything that supports your parallel construction (that Maher and Harris were supposedly saying: ‘simply being Muslim leads to extremist conduct’). For example: > [@](#): > > AFFLECK: Your argument is, “You know, black people, they shoot each other” – > > MAHER: It’s not! No, it’s not. It’s based on facts. I can show you a Pew poll of Egyptians. They are not outliers in the Muslims world. It’s like 90% of them believe death is the appropriate response to leaving the religion. If 90% of Brazilians thought that death was the appropriate response to leaving Catholicism you would think it was a bigger deal. But then Harris goes on to say: > [@](#): > > HARRIS: There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who are nominal Muslims who don’t take the faith siresly [presumably “seriously”], who don’t want to kill apostates, who are horrified by ISIS and we need to defend these people, prop them up and let them reform their faith. … which really doesn’t support your contention. [http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/10/03/bill\_maher\_vs\_ben\_affleck\_on\_islam\_mafia\_that\_will\_fucking\_kill\_you\_if\_you\_say\_the\_wrong\_thing.html](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/10/03/bill_maher_vs_ben_affleck_on_islam_mafia_that_will_fucking_kill_you_if_you_say_the_wrong_thing.html) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/102 "2014-10-07T19:33:58Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > Yes, most are not. But you refuse to acknowledge that this one particular religion has a LOT of extremists. Pointing that out and denouncing it is in no way racist or Islamaphobic. This is not an accurate representation of my argument. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/103 "2014-10-07T19:34:59Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > The ones who are doing it are the ones acting in good faith. Various holy texts are interpreted in many ways. The “peaceful” interpretation is certainly no less valid than a more hostile one. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/104 "2014-10-07T19:36:53Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Of course not, but hating somebody because of their religious affiliation is still discrimination. Religions make claims on history, science, ethics, and the rest. I can challenge these claims, which are nearly always wrong, without being a bigot. If people hold wrong beliefs (Mormons claim Native Americans had chariots and swords), those are fair game. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That’s what i don’t get. Bill Maher didn’t strike me as a racist before this. I thought he was just being anti-religious. Religion isn’t race. It’s a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/105 "2014-10-07T19:39:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Various holy texts are interpreted in many ways. The “peaceful” interpretation is certainly no less valid than a more hostile one. Being a religious moderate makes no sense. You only “sort of” believe it? Either the books are holy or not, without any cherry-picking “interpretation.” Put up or shut up, believers. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/106 "2014-10-07T19:42:47Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > Being a religious moderate makes no sense. Maybe not to you, but to some people it probably does. All holy books require interpretation. Being a religious extremist makes far less “sense” to me than being a religious moderate. Of course, I’m an atheist, so religions are all equally mysterious and nonsensical to me… but I can understand the motivations and reason of the moderates much better than the extremists. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/107 "2014-10-07T19:45:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The people who wrote the American Constitution were in no sense “Christian leaders.” Many of them were in no sense Christian at all. Tricky, tricky. While they might not have been leading people in the Christian faith, the vast majority of the leaders were, in fact, Christian. As far as your “many of them were in no sense Christian at all”, I’ll have to ask for a cite. That seems to be gross exaggeration on your part. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/108 "2014-10-07T19:45:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Maybe not to you, but to some people it probably does. All holy books require interpretation. > > Being a religious extremist makes far less “sense” to me than being a religious moderate. > > Of course, I’m an atheist, so religions are all equally mysterious and nonsensical to me… but I can understand the motivations and reason of the moderates much better than the extremists. I’m an atheist also, and I’m flabbergasted at all the cognitive dissonance displayed by those who don’t seem to see their holy books as actually holy when they find it inconvenient. Most believers, from any religion, do indeed cherry-pick, and I think that pointing this out is crucial to breaking the power of religion, hence my calls for them to put up or shut up. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/109 "2014-10-07T19:48:20Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > But _is_ But then Harris goes on to say: > Quote: > HARRIS: There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who are nominal Muslims who don’t take the faith siresly [presumably “seriously”], who don’t want to kill apostates, who are horrified by ISIS and we need to defend these people, prop them up and let them reform their faith. > … which really doesn’t support your contention. Wait. Wait. How is that not LITERALLY saying, and I don’t mean implying, but literally saying that those who “take the faith seriously” become extremists? I mean, that’s what Harris is saying unequivocally in your quote. There’s, like, no other interpretation possible. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/110 "2014-10-07T19:48:39Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Tricky, tricky. While they might not have been leading people in the Christian faith, the vast majority of the leaders were, in fact, Christian. As far as your “many of them were in no sense Christian at all”, I’ll have to ask for a cite. That seems to be gross exaggeration on your part. [Deism was pretty popular among such people.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism#Deism_in_the_United_States) ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/111 "2014-10-07T19:50:06Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Wait. Wait. How is that not LITERALLY saying, and I don’t mean implying, but literally saying that those who “take the faith seriously” become extremists? > > I mean, that’s what Harris is saying unequivocally in your quote. There’s, like, no other interpretation possible. Because, as I’ve been pointing it out, extremism is the only stance possible when one takes it seriously. The Koran either means what it says or it doesn’t. It’s either holy or it’s not. I respect fundamentalists and extremists, as they are at least displaying the courage of their convictions, rather than acting in bad faith. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/112 "2014-10-07T19:55:49Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > Because, as I’ve been pointing it out, extremism is the only stance possible when one takes it seriously. The Koran either means what it says or it doesn’t. It’s either holy or it’s not. I respect fundamentalists and extremists, as they are at least displaying the courage of their convictions, rather than acting in bad faith. Isn’t that a “no true scotsman” argument? If you define the true believers as extremists, then yeah, sure, the extremists are true believers. So, according to that, there are no “real” Christians either, since you’d have to refuse to do a million things to act according to the Leviticus. Or any other practitioner of any religion who doesn’t take seriously every little thing. All those are “false” practitioners who don’t take their religioun seriously, and that includes practically every religious leader, including the Pope. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/113 "2014-10-07T19:59:16Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Isn’t that a “no true scotsman” argument? If you define the true believers as extremists, then yeah, sure, the extremists are true believers. > > So, according to that, there are no “real” Christians either, since you’d have to refuse to do a million things to act according to the Leviticus. Or any other practitioner of any religion who doesn’t take seriously every little thing. All those are “false” practitioners who don’t take their religioun seriously, and that includes practically every religious leader, including the Pope. Yes!! Exactly! That should accelerate the process of humanity deciding that religion is nonsense, and discarding it accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/114 "2014-10-07T20:01:36Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > Yes!! Exactly! That should accelerate the process of humanity deciding that religion is nonsense, and discarding it accordingly. Religion may be nonsense. Blaming a whole set of social, cultural and political problems solely on its existence is not that rational either. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/115 "2014-10-07T20:04:20Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Religion may be nonsense. Blaming a whole set of social, cultural and political problems solely on its existence is not that rational either. It’s not the only cause, but it’s the most absurd and disposable. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/116 "2014-10-07T20:06:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Just like killing abortion doctors is an “extremist Christian” belief. It’s not a Christian belief, and suicide bombing is not an Islamic belief. The “extremist” tells us a lot more. The Islamic/Christian/etc. only tells us what flavor of extremism it is. Extremism is the problem here, not Islam. Oh, really? It’s “just like” “extremist Christian” belief. Well, you’ll have to back that up. Like with a poll that shows that the same proportion of Christians see their religion as mandating or supporting the killing of abortion doctors as the proportion of Muslims who see their religion mandating or supporting the killing of innocents, murdering gays, stoning adulterers, mutilating girls, killing those who leave the religion, etc. Still waiting for that. And without it, all you have is a knee-jerk leftist fantasy shared by Affleck. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What point? What am I ignoring? They’re Muslims, and that tells us nothing. They’re extremist and radical, and that gives us useful information. You’re ignoring that these murderous savages are not just random individuals. They are not Charlie Mansons or Malcolm McDowell’s character from A Clockwork Orange. They share something deeply: a religion. Explicitly. Not only do they share it, they point to it as the reason for their fucked-in-the-head savagery. They TELL us the reason. As some one else brought up, it’s akin claiming that a bunch of good old boys from 1940s Alabama who donned white sheets and separately killed a bunch of black people did so just because, well, any reason at all…as long as you don’t dare think their KKK membership had anything do do with it. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve already addressed these issues. More terrorists happen to be Muslims. This still doesn’t tell us anything about Islam or Muslims in general, since the vast majority are not terrorists. And answering “yes” on a poll doesn’t make someone a threat to us. Nonsense. It raises the degree of the threat. Significantly. Just imagine if the poll showed that only .0001% agreed with the outlook of the savages. The fact that so many do agree with them means that the religion writ large is way too accepting of murderous savagery. And it increases the likelihood that another innocent Muslim will be the next radical savage asshole. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/117 "2014-10-07T20:07:08Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > [Deism was pretty popular among such people.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism#Deism_in_the_United_States) I’m well acquainted with Deism and The Founders. My point stands. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/118 "2014-10-07T20:08:28Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > It’s not the only cause, but it’s the most absurd and disposable. It made wonders for the Communist countries, did it? Face it, the problem is not religion, is people. People will always find some excuse to be monsters to each other. Bronze age mythology, money, tribalism… you will never get rid of the basic human need to be jerks… and least of all becoming a jerk against a particular group yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/119 "2014-10-07T20:11:29Z")
If I believed that the creator of the universe was going to torture me forever if I didn’t do X, Y, and Z. I’d be up early doing them. Extremists believe that, so they go balls to the wall. I’d say that moderate believers don’t believe that X, Y, and Z are actually necessary. You just need to do X when you can, and Y as your conscience dictates. And Z is just silly. They can still believe hard, and even be extremist, but their beliefs are mushier and easier to live with. Those idiot Mega-Church Christians that live here can be extremists, it’s just their beliefs are mushy pap designed to be easily salable in today’s market. They don’t get the “stone adulterers” stuff fed to them. They get treacly nonsense about love, and hating abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589/120 "2014-10-07T20:12:21Z")
> [@](#): > > HARRIS: There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who are nominal Muslims who don’t take the faith siresly [presumably “seriously”], who don’t want to kill apostates, who are horrified by ISIS and we need to defend these people, prop them up and let them reform their faith. > [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Wait. Wait. How is that not LITERALLY saying, and I don’t mean implying, but literally saying that those who “take the faith seriously” become extremists? > I mean, that’s what Harris is saying unequivocally in your quote. There’s, like, no other interpretation possible. I don’t think it’s quite that unequivocal. Look at the quote: Harris does call those people (who don’t want to kill apostates, etc.) “Muslims.” (He says “hundreds of millions of Muslims,” in fact, fall into this category of being against killing apostates and of being horrified by ISIS.) So he’s saying you can be Muslim (albeit nominal) and not extremist. That’s not the same thing as saying, as you alleged Harris and Maher were saying, that simply being Muslim “leads to” being extremist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-do-you-stand-on-the-bill-maher-ben-affleck-argument/700589.md?page=7)