# Where does religious tolerance end? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 3, 2005, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-religious-tolerance-end/292736 "2005-03-03T09:39:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-religious-tolerance-end/292736/61 "2005-03-08T18:59:54Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > I have a suggestion about this. I can not seem to see the other side’s point of view. I have just as much free speech as you, in a current society, in print, and in speech, and you are free not to listen to me. However, I underestimated the willingness of people to keep arguing with me, long after people were sick of it, so: > > It is very simple, research historical precident of your opinon. It’s safe, it’s smart, and it’s the law. > > Let’s say that I, or someone like me, participates in a public conversation. When and if I begin to simply state opinions that I have not researched, but simply believe makes sense, I get fined. The same thing should happen to those who do the same thing with their preferred religious book. > > Note that I am not suggesting this for the forum, for I would soon run out of money, but instead for this hypothetical society. Also note that I did not talk about soap boxes, or public debates, but simply street corner debate. I’m not sure what side you’re arguing for. Or what your post is referring to… ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-religious-tolerance-end/292736/62 "2005-03-08T19:14:07Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > \ Or what your post is referring to… It was the post before mine concerning the risk of offensive behavior. I cannot see the pros of christianity, and that has lead to much fighting. I was putting up a suggestion of how to deal with people like me, who can not see both sides of an issue. If implimented, I believe it would work towards stopping real life flamewars in the hypothetical utopia that this thread is about. It is just a suggestion. P.S. There is no need to post my complete quote when quoting. You can simply put …, or \ to show you cut out something. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-religious-tolerance-end/292736/63 "2005-03-08T20:00:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s not the government’s job to get rid of things I don’t like. [cranky middle aged guy voice] The hell it AIN’T! Why else should I pay my taxes? [still cranky middle aged guy voice because I’m a cranky middle aged guy] ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-religious-tolerance-end/292736/64 "2005-03-08T20:04:36Z")
Oh glod, I thought I was posting to the discussion on a Utopia for dopers! How in the heck did I do this? I should really cut down on the crack, as per a recomendation on another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-religious-tolerance-end/292736/65 "2005-03-08T21:12:15Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > It was the post before mine concerning the risk of offensive behavior. I cannot see the pros of christianity, and that has lead to much fighting. I was putting up a suggestion of how to deal with people like me, who can not see both sides of an issue. If implimented, I believe it would work towards stopping real life flamewars in the hypothetical utopia that this thread is about. It is just a suggestion. > > P.S. There is no need to post my complete quote when quoting. You can simply put …, or \ to show you cut out something. I was unsure of the whole thing…so I pasted the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-religious-tolerance-end/292736/66 "2005-03-09T08:57:00Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I was unsure of the whole thing…so I pasted the whole thing. Glad I was not the only one who didn’t have a clue what \*\*Scott\_Plaid \*\* was on about. ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-religious-tolerance-end/292736/67 "2005-03-09T11:22:23Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > A blanket ban on religious expression in schools (as opposed to a ban on items that are demonstrably disruptive) _is in itself_ a religious dictate (albeit an entirely negative one). Nonsense. A dress code certainly isn’t a religious dictate. Not granting religious group X an exception to a rule isn’t a religious dictate either. If there’s a dress code, everyone has to oblige to it, otherwise we might as well skip the whole dress code, if there are exceptions for groups X, Y and Z, just because they happen to be religious. It’s kinda like getting a ticket for speeding and then complaining about religious oppression just because you’re following belief X. The two simply aren’t related, everyone gets a ticket when they’re caught speeding and everyone has to adhere to the dress code, irrespective of religion, race, gender, frame of mind, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-religious-tolerance-end/292736/68 "2005-03-09T12:20:30Z")
> [@Optihut](#): > > Nonsense. A dress code certainly isn’t a religious dictate. Not granting religious group X an exception to a rule isn’t a religious dictate either. If there’s a dress code, everyone has to oblige to it, otherwise we might as well skip the whole dress code, if there are exceptions for groups X, Y and Z, just because they happen to be religious. If you pass laws that require every child to attend school then you’re going to have to make some considerations for their religious beliefs. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-religious-tolerance-end/292736/69 "2005-03-09T12:48:13Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > If you pass laws that require every child to attend school then you’re going to have to make some considerations for their religious beliefs. You have to go to school, but you don’t have to go to public schools. If you want to practice belief X, you’re free to do so in your leisure time. Breaking dress codes at public schools isn’t an expression of religion, it’s simply an expression of breaking the rules and trying to get away with it. That said, there was no dress code at my school, even though a teacher once shouted at one of the pupils, because he was wearing a baseball cap. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-religious-tolerance-end/292736/70 "2005-03-10T07:09:23Z")
> [@Optihut](#): > > Breaking dress codes at public schools isn’t an expression of religion, it’s simply an expression of breaking the rules and trying to get away with it. Hmm. If kids want to rebel I don’t think that’s how they’ll do it. Of course, I never liked the idea of a dress code to start with. ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-religious-tolerance-end/292736/71 "2005-03-10T07:25:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Hmm. If kids want to rebel I don’t think that’s how they’ll do it. Of course, I never liked the idea of a dress code to start with. Precisely! That’s why I don’t think it’s the kids that want to break the dress code, but the parents in the background. I never liked the idea of a dress code either, but if there is one, I think everyone has to abide by it without the state awarding benefits to special interest groups. ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-religious-tolerance-end/292736/72 "2005-03-10T11:00:55Z")
> [@Optihut](#): > > I never liked the idea of a dress code either, but if there is one, I think everyone has to abide by it without the state awarding benefits to special interest groups. I think this goes right to the problems with this issue. If the state says there is to be no religious clothing, jewellery etc in schools, then **Mangetout** is right, it is religious meddling. However, if the powers that be are stating what **is** to be worn and stipulate there is to be no exceptions - as is what happens in most real-life situations - they are operating under a “separation of state and religion” model. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-religious-tolerance-end/292736/73 "2005-03-10T17:39:16Z")
> [@faldureon](#): > > I beg to differ. I am an atheist and I HATED wearing a school uniform. I do not see why imposing it onto atheists is any better or worse then imposing it onto anyone else. I was no less upset about having to wear things I considered ugly and uncomfortable then a religious person was over those ugly and uncomfortable things not matching their belief of what they should wear. The idea is that it’ll make people **equally** miserable. That way they’ll be angry at the State(which has very thick skin) rather then each other (which leads to abuse/discrimination/etc…). Exactly. But this kidn of gets obliterated when certain groups are privileged over others (and frankly, I’m surprised by the lack of first-hand accounts here- enough with the vaguaries, who here has kids in high school or goes there now?). I had a pretty strict uniform at my high school, though it was often a cause for debate (and this wasted, no exaggeration, about 20 minutes of class time a day, not including the assemblies devoted solely to the matter). But, of course, kids were allowed to wear turbans and headscarves if they chose (though crosses had to be kept against the skin, under a shirt). Piercings (other than single-ear, which are somehow magically okay while anything more is pure evil) were not allowed. But then something interesting happened- white kids were being sent home/forced to remove their nose piercings, while Indian girls were allowed to keep theirs without a word. No one said boo. When asked why noserings were banned, the vice principal went on some rant “unprofessional… blah blah… punkish, stands out in the crowd, etc.” With a little prompting, she managed to equate their wearers with savages, but later mentioned something about Asian culture apologetically. Eventually, this jewelry got sworn into the dress code unofficially, and baby steps were made with other piercings, tattoos. Who is the school board to say what is important to a teen’s culture or religion? I remember them scrutinizing the Wiccan kids and testing their faith, though they wouldn’t dare make a Muslim girl defend her chador. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-religious-tolerance-end/292736.md?page=3)