# Where does that stereotypical "oriental" song come from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 3, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196 "2005-02-03T17:15:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/81 "2005-02-09T21:57:11Z")
If anyone has the patience to listen to these, here are some actual Chinese, Korean and Thai songs (midi) – just in case the theme we’re looking for is an authentic song. [Chinese midi music](http://www.angelfire.com/ok/francisyeow/midi8.html) ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/82 "2005-02-09T22:21:01Z")
[Here](http://www.audiosparx.com/sa/play/play.cfm/sound_iid.35039)’s a sound file that someone is vending that sounds very close to the theme I think everyone is thinking of. It’s not the exactly same and is shorter than what Bolero and I are thinking of as the “Cliche” version of the theme. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/83 "2005-02-09T22:29:43Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > [Here](http://www.audiosparx.com/sa/play/play.cfm/sound_iid.35039)’s a sound file that someone is vending that sounds very close to the theme I think everyone is thinking of. It’s not the exactly same and is shorter than what Bolero and I are thinking of as the “Cliche” version of the theme. That’s almost exactly it, except the third pitch goes _up_ instead of down. The way Musicat wrote it out is exactly the way I’ve always remembered it. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/84 "2005-02-09T22:31:17Z")
[hijack] I just found the greatest collection of Looney Tunes music and sounds effects [here](http://www.nonstick.com/sounds/) . In the righthand vertical pane, scroll down to the botton and choose Music or Sound Effects. [/hijack] Sorry, I won’t hijack again, but I couldn’t resist. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/85 "2005-02-09T22:48:56Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > That’s almost exactly it, except the third pitch goes _up_ instead of down. The way Musicat wrote it out is exactly the way I’ve always remembered it. Yep, me too, but with the addition of the notes I wrote in my post earlier post. I just thought the xylophone and gong were dead on. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/86 "2005-02-10T00:24:24Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > You missed the point. Had you read the _original_ Snopes article, before the tape turned up, there would have been a strong implication that the event _never happened_. Not just that the details were changed, but that it NEVER HAPPENED. I only used that to demonstrate the GENERAL PRINCIPLE that, “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” Way to take it out of context, though. :rolleyes: Look, you’re flogging a red herring here. I understand “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” Isn’t that the logic behind the statement “it is impossible to prove a negative,” which I admitted in this thread long before before you chose to start harping on this piece of philosphical sophistry? Now here’s something else I’ll concede (again). In this thread I haven’t been pushing just one theory of what happened here. I’ve been exploring several. I didn’t distinguish or defend any of them very well because I didn’t expect such a strident reaction to them. So I’ll try to wrap up the 3 possible outcomes that I’ve been considering: 1. This precise tune appeared as a motif in a named musical work fairly early in the 20th century. A link to an audio file or audio score would conclusively demonstrate this. So far, we haven’t arrived at this. We’ve arrived at some very, very close tunes, but someone specified that it has to be this _specific_ one. Therefore, no luck so far. 2. This precise tune first appeared as incidental music in popular culture sometime in the 20th century. For what it’s worth, I _think_ I remember it existing before “Kung Fu Fighting,” but I also remember other tunes, so I don’t trust my memories. If this is the case, there’s a strong chance we won’t be able to identify an “origin” because “there is no database of Scooby Doo cartoon incidental music.” That, and the fact that there are so many similar tunes. \*\*That doesn’t mean the tune never existed, it just means nobody will be able to prove that it did. \*\* So far, this is resoundingly true, if we agree that memories are faulty and can’t be considered “proof.” 3. This precise tune never existed before popularized in “Kung Fu Fighting”, and those who claim it does are in fact only remembering one of the many, many almost identical Orientalist melodies in use for 70 years prior to then. Yes, it’s radical and contrarian and possibly incorrect. Because it’s a negative assertion, it can’t be proven (absence of evidence != evidence of absence. ad nauseaum). And it can be easily be disproven by surfacing of proof. However, due to problems mentioned in #2 above, disproving this is also not likely. See? We’re not in total disagreement. You’d fall under the rubric of #2 above, which you’re fiercely advocating. On the other hand, you seem pledged to fight #3 to the death. That’s well and good, but if you disprove #3, you still haven’t proven #2. I think they’re all equally possible. I wish #1 would pan out because I prefer questions to have answers. That’s why I keep trying to say… until we get a cite, we’re just batting around childhood memories. Evidence would tie this up neatly. Without it, all outcomes are equally possible. Lastly, I don’t think application of logic is solely Great Debates territory. This is only a “Great Debate” if we’re arguing the merits of a non-factual question and thus trying to decide whose logic is better. Logic acts to narrow down facts, and we’re trying to find a fact here. Aren’t we? ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/87 "2005-02-10T00:54:27Z")
So much for the spirit of inquiry. Someone has decided that we will never find the answer and should stop trying. Furthermore, he has decided that anyone who remembers anything from before he was born has a faulty memory. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/88 "2005-02-10T01:05:13Z")
Nattoguy - I don’t think anybody – least of all me – is advocating that Scooby-Doo (or Tom and Jerry or whatever) is the origin of this melody. I think the point of view that I and I’d guess **blowero** is pushing is something in-between your #2 and #3 choices – that the stereotypical “chinese music” did indeed originate in popular culture sometime in the last 60 years or so, as a distillation of asian-sounding riffs, but that KFF is not that source. If we find an earlier instance than KFF, then I agree: we’ve disproven #3, but not proven the “real” origin of the material. What we have done is, by progressively finding earlier and earlier instances, moved closer to that origin. At some point, you find the earliest instance that’s findable. I sincerely doubt that KFF is that instance. I recall that in one column, Cecil blessed be his name dismissed someone’s question about who invented a common object with the pronouncement, “You may as well ask who invented the hat”, meaning that some things are so basic they seemingly invent themselves. So it may be with this melody. However, the melody seems both a) pervasive as an “oriental” thematic, and b) venerable, meaning some of us old enough to remember watching lots of already-old material remember the melody occurring, and it was seemingly hackneyed even then. This would lead me to believe that that great hacknifier, maker of stereotypes, is responsible: television. Either a distillation of old movies & comedies played from the Jackie Gleason era onwards, plus cartoons repeated for 40 years, put this tune in everyone’s mind Lastly, I’d argue that the melody’s inclusion in KFF, a novelty song reportedly written & recorded in a few hours (I had a cite for this, but Google is failing me; I can dig if you like) makes it, to my mind, _more_ likely that KFF is _not_ the origin. Opening a novelty song with an utterly-hackneyed, every’s-heard-it “chinese theme” would be exactly what the writer would want: a song from a cartoon! What could be more perfect for a the opening to a pop-novelty song? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/89 "2005-02-10T01:37:17Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Lastly, I’d argue that the melody’s inclusion in KFF, a novelty song reportedly written & recorded in a few hours (I had a cite for this, but Google is failing me; I can dig if you like) makes it, to my mind, _more_ likely that KFF is _not_ the origin. Opening a novelty song with an utterly-hackneyed, every’s-heard-it “chinese theme” would be exactly what the writer would want: a song from a cartoon! What could be more perfect for a the opening to a pop-novelty song? First, let me express my appreciation for your continuing engagement of this discussion in a civil tone, and for being able to read my bad writing. Second… let me paint this scenario on KFF, and see if I can change your mind. A few disco/funk musicians are sitting in a motel room after weeks on the road, in a haze of marijuana smoke. After hours of watching kung fu reruns and cartoons, they think "Hey, we should write a song about kung fu. We’ll use that little kung fu ditty that everybody uses… how did it go again? da da da da dum dum… no, that’s not exactly it… da dum da da um… no, da da dum da da dum… dang, can’t remember it. Let’s just use “da da da da dum dum da dum dum dum.” That’s close enough, who’s gonna care anyway… Thus, a new iteration emerges. We can’t exactly credit Douglas for “inventing” the tune as it is derivative of 3 generations of derivatives. But since we are talking about “this exact precise tune”, perhaps it actually did come into being at this point. And yes, this is getting absurd, but in my opinion it’s only because someone insisted that the OP’s question could only be satisfied by this precise rhythm and sequence of notes. Given the amount of samizdat tunes performing in an identical capacity in TV, music, and movies, I think that is a ludicrous stricture to place on this topic. That’s what leads to ludicrous conclusions like my idea that Carl Douglas invented it; I wouldn’t have begun to suggest something like that unless someone had made such a specification. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/90 "2005-02-10T02:18:15Z")
This won’t answer the question, but I’ll just post an earlier thread, which includes a link to an even earlier thread on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/91 "2005-02-10T02:19:35Z")
As soon as I remember to paste the link: > **[Stereotypical "Oriental" and "Egyptian" music](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=141472)** > > Lots of times when a musician wants to play an instantly-identifiable “Oriental” musical riff (this is too stereotypical to be “Asian,”) he’ll play a particular short tune. IIRC it’s present in “Limehouse Blues” and that “I really do believe that I... ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/92 "2005-02-10T02:30:13Z")
> [@NattoGuy](#): > > First, let me express my appreciation for your continuing engagement of this discussion in a civil tone, and for being able to read my bad writing. Thanks > [@](#): > > Second… let me paint this scenario on KFF, and see if I can change your mind. > A few disco/funk musicians are sitting in a motel room after weeks on the road, in a haze of marijuana smoke. After hours of watching kung fu reruns and cartoons, they think "Hey, we should write a song about kung fu. We’ll use that little kung fu ditty that everybody uses… how did it go again? da da da da dum dum… no, that’s not exactly it… da dum da da um… no, da da dum da da dum… dang, can’t remember it. Let’s just use “da da da da dum dum da dum dum dum.” That’s close enough, who’s gonna care anyway… According to sources, the song was written and recorded in [ten](http://www.weht.net/WEHT/Carl_Douglas.html) [minutes](http://caribbean.halloffame.tripod.com/Carl_Douglas.html). Which may or may not support your theory. However, Carl was working with ‘legendary’ producer [Biddu](http://www.loadofold.com/boots/biddu.html), a big definer of the Disco sound, and [Gerry Shury](http://www.loadofold.com/boots/gerry_shury.html), who arranged KFF, and was also a big talent at the time. They may have been stoned, for all I know, but they weren’t amatuers. Biddu and Shury would certainly have been aware (along with Carl) of pop-culture themes and of this “oriental” melody. It’s possible your scenario works, but I’m not ready to buy it. > [@](#): > > And yes, this is getting absurd, but in my opinion it’s only because someone insisted that the OP’s question could only be satisfied by this precise rhythm and sequence of notes. Well, maybe you misunderstand me: I’m one of those people. I really do _very_ clearly recall encountering this specific melody in material that was current prior to 1974. I’d bet I could Tivo up a few hours of The Tex Avery Show, Tom and Jerry, etc, and find several instances of that _specific_ melody, and hopefully identify the years of the occurance. If I find some time, I may actually do this, since my curiousity is high, but it may have to wait until the weekend after this one when I have some time. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/93 "2005-02-10T02:49:30Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > According to sources, the song was written and recorded in [ten](http://www.weht.net/WEHT/Carl_Douglas.html) [minutes](http://caribbean.halloffame.tripod.com/Carl_Douglas.html). Which may or may not support your theory. However, Carl was working with ‘legendary’ producer [Biddu](http://www.loadofold.com/boots/biddu.html), a big definer of the Disco sound, and [Gerry Shury](http://www.loadofold.com/boots/gerry_shury.html), who arranged KFF, and was also a big talent at the time. They may have been stoned, for all I know, but they weren’t amatuers. Here’s a [cite](http://www.superseventies.com/sw_kungfufighting.html) that says Douglas had brought the KFF lyrics to the studio, having written them previously. It then suggests that Biddu wrote the melody in the studio, and the actual recording took place in the 10 minutes remaining after the melody was written. I’m not really implying that they were amateurs. I’m just suggesting the possibility that while trying to remember a suitable Oriental-sounding tune that fit what they were trying to do, in the heat of the moment they might have inadvertently created a new one. It could have been by misremembering or by forcing the riff to fit the meter. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/94 "2005-02-10T07:29:29Z")
Apropos of nothing, here’s another example, (although this one is missing the parallel 4ths): [http://www.wickedwavs.com/?page=search](http://www.wickedwavs.com/?page=search) Search for “oriental”, then listen to Paul Sumpter’s “Music Theme - Oriental”. The tune appears in the middle of the clip. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/95 "2005-02-10T08:06:37Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Search for “oriental”, then listen to Paul Sumpter’s “Music Theme - Oriental”. The tune appears in the middle of the clip. It certainly does. By way of dating the piece, the blurb says: > [@](#): > > Paul Sumpter has been composing for over eight years encompassing everything from jazz to electronica, film music to dance music, rock to baroque. So that could be from as early as 1997 if we’re to assume the article is current. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/96 "2005-02-10T08:39:21Z")
> [@NattoGuy](#): > > It certainly does. By way of dating the piece, the blurb says: > > So that could be from as early as 1997 if we’re to assume the article is current. Why do you insist on being a prick? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/97 "2005-02-10T09:45:43Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Why do you insist on being a prick? Listen blowero, you’re the one who has been making with the truckloads of rolleyes smileys, condescending philosophical sophistry, and general snarkishness. Not I. Now you’re adding vulgar name-calling, and for what reason? Because I added dating information to your clip, in language so neutral and non-confrontational as to be bland? We are still talking about finding an earlier occurrence of this clip, aren’t we? I swear I’m not trying to take a wrecking ball to your childhood memories and I’m sorry if it looks that way to you. I don’t understand the hostility, why can’t you relax? ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/98 "2005-02-10T10:46:12Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > I’d bet I could Tivo up a few hours of The Tex Avery Show, Tom and Jerry, etc, and find several instances of that _specific_ melody, and hopefully identify the years of the occurance. You should look up Bob Clampett too - _Beany and Cecil_ was filled to overflowing with cliches like this. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/99 "2005-02-10T11:50:19Z")
[Moderator mode] Everyone chill here. Especially you, **blowero**. You don’t call names in GQ. Since there is still info being provided from more than a few people, I’ll let this one stay open for now. But not if it turns further into a debate. [/Moderator] ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196/100 "2005-02-10T12:16:35Z")
Yeah; I second **sam**. I find this topic to be really intriguing, and I’d be pissed if it got closed because it wandered into non-GQ territory. I’m reasonably sure that everyone agrees that there are multiple possible origins and explanations, and we don’t have enough evidence to say one or the other is positively correct. Or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-that-stereotypical-oriental-song-come-from/288196.md?page=6)