# Where does the American West begin? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 18, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093 "2010-07-18T03:25:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/21 "2010-07-18T17:55:45Z")
> [@gravitycrash](#): > > To me the West begins where the scenery starts to change significantly, roughly when you get about 1/3 of a way across Nebraska or Kansas or any place West of there. The farms give way to ranches and the trees are mostly only found around streams and other water sources. Also you notice the clouds begin to get closer (or appear closer) to the ground as the elevation of the plains gets higher. > > Kansas City is still too green for me to consider it being part of the West, YMMV of course. Which is why I, and a few others, use [the 100th meridian west](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100th_meridian_west) as the line of demarcation (which runs right through Dodge City). ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/22 "2010-07-18T18:20:42Z")
Without further qualification, I’d say the Mississippi River. If you are speaking of Colonial times, then the Appalachians – and the rest of the continent – would be “out west.” The West in terms of movies and the Old West definitely includes Texas, so anything north of there would fit. Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, the Dakotas. I can’t decide about Missouri, Iowa and Minnesota. And since Arkansas and Louisiana are in the SEC, I think Southeast for them. The Far West is basically the same (to me) as the Pacific Coast. I’m less clear in my own thinking about dividing lines between Southwest and Northwest. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/23 "2010-07-18T18:30:01Z")
> [@bump](#): > > [Fort Leavenworth](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/fort-leavenworth.htm) > > [Fort Leavenworth - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Leavenworth) > > [http://garrison.leavenworth.army.mil/sites/about/history.asp](http://garrison.leavenworth.army.mil/sites/about/history.asp) Interesting. The National Park Service, Wikipedia, and virtual every history and account of the trails themselves indicate that the trails started in Missouri, not at Fort Leavenworth. Park Service: [Oregon Trail Map](http://www.nps.gov/PWR/customcf/apps/maps/showmap.cfm?alphacode=oreg&parkname=Oregon%20National%20Historic%20Trail), [partial Santa Fe Trail map](http://www.nps.gov/archive/safe/fnl-sft/maps/map1/map1.htm). [Wikipedia on Oregon Trail](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Trail): “[T]he Oregon Trail’s primary starting point was Independence, Missouri, or Westport, Kansas City (Missouri)…” [Wikipedia on Santa Fe Trail](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fe_Trail): “The eastern end of the trail was in the central Missouri town of Franklin…” I think my liars can beat up your liars. 😛 Fort Leavenworth was a “jumping off” point for the trails – the starting point for some of those who traveled them. No way was it the easternmost point of the trails. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/24 "2010-07-18T18:37:19Z")
Somewhere between Houston and Dallas. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/25 "2010-07-18T18:38:05Z")
Western South Dakota was definitely Old West if you are thinking in terms of cowboys and Indians, rootin’-tootin’ and such. Wild Bill Hickock and Calamity Jane are both buried there. But immediately west of the Mississippi I think of as prairie and farming folks. Central Minnesota is where The (ahem) Indian Uprising took place in the mid 1860s complete with massacres so I suppose you could consider that the Wild West though it was much more an agrarian and domesticated society at the time than farther west. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/26 "2010-07-18T18:40:37Z")
Pittsburgh isn’t part of the midwest, either. It’s the north east. We have some [_cultural_ similiarities](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh#Cultural_identity), but we’re certainly not the midwest. Are you sure you didn’t just hear Pittsburgh referred to as western PA? (We generally devide the state between Pittsburgh and Filthadelphia) ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/27 "2010-07-18T19:35:57Z")
I’d place the starting point at the first mountain range west of the Great Plains, or where the topography first changes. This would be the Rockies in Colorado, the Wichitas and Balcones Escarpment in Oklahoma and Texas, and perhaps the Black Hills and Badlands of the Dakotas. Maybe we could use a [map of the US at the Centennial](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_1868-1876.png) as a basis. The West is all territories and disputed areas; California, Nevada and Oregon, and Texas west of the Balcones fault or the Chisolm Trail. Basically, the areas that were beyond the borders of the time. This would also match up with the start of the settlement of the West. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/28 "2010-07-18T20:19:36Z")
Several people in this thread seem to disagree but for me the divide is the Mississippi. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/29 "2010-07-18T20:55:00Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > Interesting. The National Park Service, Wikipedia, and virtual every history and account of the trails themselves indicate that the trails started in Missouri, not at Fort Leavenworth. I agree with Gary. I grew up in Kansas City, which meant numerous field trips to Independence, history lessons on the various Trails, placards near my home for the Santa Fe Trail (which was decidedly east of Ft. Leavenworth), etc. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/30 "2010-07-19T00:40:49Z")
The Mississipi is just a little too far east to be the dividing line, imho. I’d say it’s about midway between the Mississippi and the Missouri, or roughly 2/3rds of the way west across Minnesota, Iowa and Missouri. This is also about where the Plains proper can be said to start. Kansas is definitely in the West, although if there’s such a thing you would have to call it the “eastern” West. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/31 "2010-07-19T00:50:11Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > (We generally devide the state between Pittsburgh and Filthadelphia) I do believe you misspelled Pissburgh. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/32 "2010-07-19T01:28:07Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > roughly 2/3rds of the way west across Minnesota, Iowa and Missouri. This is also about where the Plains proper can be said to start. Said by whom? GaryT provided [three maps of the Plains](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12697639&postcount=14) in the thread linked in the OP, none of them come close to touching Missouri. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/33 "2010-07-19T02:12:45Z")
I defy anyone who’s ever visited southwest Minnesota to say it isn’t “the Plains”. And any region that fought a [war against the Dakota Sioux](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_War_of_1862) is the West. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/34 "2010-07-19T02:18:07Z")
I’ll throw my vote in for the 100th Meridian West. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/35 "2010-07-19T02:23:41Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Which is why I, and a few others, use [the 100th meridian west](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100th_meridian_west) as the line of demarcation (which runs right through Dodge City). I’d agree with this. I first thought “the eastern border of Colorado extended north and south,” but then I figured it had to include Dodge City. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/36 "2010-07-19T02:57:44Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Somewhere between Houston and Dallas. I’d actually expand the northern point up to Omaha, Nebraska. Pretty much anything west of that line is…well, it’s The West. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/37 "2010-07-19T03:19:33Z")
It’s important to ask, “when?” “The West” certainly began at St. Louis onceuponatime, since most everything west of it was “uncivilized” to Easterners. Later, Denver was the boundary. As settlements moved in, the West moved west, and eventually merged with the West Coast moving east. ---
**Author:** ![Jules\_Andre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jules_andre/32/9334_2.png) [@Jules\_Andre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jules_Andre)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/38 "2010-07-19T03:26:15Z")
I’m in agreement with the Census Bureau maps linked above, with the exception of Maryland, Delaware, Texas, and Oklahoma. MD and DE aren’t southern states, and OK is more of a Midwestern state in my eyes. Texas is the big question mark to me as it definitely fits in with the West but probably self-identifies more with the South. There’s probably a point somewhere in the middle of Texas that marks where the “West” begins, and OK, KS, NE, and the Dakotas aren’t in the West. Also worth noting, I think, is that when I think of the “West” I don’t include any of the Pacific Coast states, as they seem different enough to warrant their own division. FWIW I was born and raised in Arizona. ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/39 "2010-07-19T03:26:52Z")
> [@cornflakes](#): > > I’d place the starting point at the first mountain range west of the Great Plains, or where the topography first changes. This would be the Rockies in Colorado, the Wichitas and Balcones Escarpment in Oklahoma and Texas, and perhaps the Black Hills and Badlands of the Dakotas. I would go for this. The Great Plains are the middle. Anything to the west of them is in the West. Anything to the east is the East. Or an alternative could be the [20" rainfall line](http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/pcpn/us_precip.gif). That would leave the Dakotas and the western 3rd of Texas in the West. Certainly any state that was already connected by rail to the original 13 states by 1860 should be out. In any case, any rule has to leave Minnesota, Iowa, Missouri, and Arkansas out of the West. Geographically, climatologically, & culturally none of them fit. So the Mississippi doesn’t work as a divider. Of course you should take that with a grain of salt. I think some traditional names need to be changed, namely the Midwest. Hate to tell people this… but if you look on a map the “midwest” of the continental US (i.e. the middle of the west) is Utah-Colorado. And this has been the case for well over 150 years. It is time to let the name retire and quit referring to Ohio as the Midwest. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/40 "2010-07-19T03:53:29Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Which is why I, and a few others, use [the 100th meridian west](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100th_meridian_west) as the line of demarcation (which runs right through Dodge City). The more I think about it, the more I think that’s a reasonable line of demarcation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093.md?page=3)