# Where does the American West begin? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 18, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093 "2010-07-18T03:25:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/61 "2010-07-20T17:13:33Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Go to 1820s St. Louis and tell me it is similar in any way, shape or form to 1820s Boston. The same could be said of 1820s Nashville, which was then considered to be part of “the West.” (Tennesseean Andrew Jackson was regarded as a man of the West in his day.) The West has moved a bit since then. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/62 "2010-07-20T19:32:53Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > The West has moved a bit since then. 🙂 Well sure. An argument could be made that it doesn’t even exist anymore, I guess, right? Both of these threads seem to really be divided between those arguing for a geographic definition versus those going for a cultural/historic definition. Having lived a few blocks from the Santa Fe Trail, my idea of “the West” is more in line with the “expansion into the wilderness” west of Lewis and Clark and _Little House on the Prairie_ rather than the “OK Corral”-type west of Wyatt Earp and _Gunsmoke_. Edit: Actually, my version includes both of those, rather than just the latter. But I see where others are coming from. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/63 "2010-07-21T00:23:22Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Slight addendum: Within Texas, I think the [Brazos River](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazos_River) is a pretty good marker. For Texas, I’d say I-35 is a good boundary. The Blackaland Prairie and greener areas are “east”, while the Edwards Plateau and scrubby areas are “west”. For cities on the border, it’s the culture that pushes them into east and west. Austin and Dallas are east-ish, while San Antonio and Fort Worth are west-ish. None would be considered “West Texas”, though; that moniker apples to El Paso, Amarillo, Midland and Lubbock. Another rule of thumb I once heard: areas with FM (farm-to-market) roads are east-ish, while RM (ranch-to-market) roads are west-ish. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/64 "2010-07-21T01:14:34Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I’m surprised how many people seem really to think _ **Iowa** _ is western. I challenge anyone to go to, say, Davenport, IA, and tell me it’s more like _Deadwood_ than _A Prairie Home Companion_ (which itself takes place in the partially west-of-the-Mississippi state of Minnesota). Eastern Iowa isn’t (it’s green and hilly and could probably be mistaken for Pennsylvania), but western Iowa has a very western look, to me anyway. The soil is a different color and the horizon seems more distant. The farm fields end and ranch country begins. We’re heading that way Friday. I’ll pay attention, see if I can pinpoint the spot where it starts to change. It’s more _Little House_ like **Munch** says than it’s Monument Valley or the desert, but it fits my definition of “west”. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/65 "2010-07-21T02:01:34Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > Interesting. The National Park Service, Wikipedia, and virtual every history and account of the trails themselves indicate that the trails started in Missouri, not at Fort Leavenworth. > > I think my liars can beat up your liars. 😛 > > Fort Leavenworth was a “jumping off” point for the trails – the starting point for some of those who traveled them. No way was it the easternmost point of the trails. Independence isn’t that far from Leavenworth; 30-35 miles east. I bet it’s more a matter of definition; past Ft. Leavenworth, you were literally in the wilderness until you got to the West Coast, so it was the “jumping off” point in the sense that it was the last civilized outpost before the unknown, not necessarily where people from the east organized their wagon trains and all that. I agree with the poster who said that “the West” varied with time. I suspect that in 1830, Texas was about as West as things got. Nowadays, we’re a sort of hybrid of the West and the South, both geographically and culturally; if you think of the “Old West”, Texas is right there, but I don’t think people in say… Indiana think of Texas as “Western” in any way except for maybe “Country and Western” ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/66 "2010-07-21T02:12:26Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I’m surprised how many people seem really to think _ **Iowa** _ is western. I challenge anyone to go to, say, Davenport, IA, and tell me it’s more like _Deadwood_ than _A Prairie Home Companion_ (which itself takes place in the partially west-of-the-Mississippi state of Minnesota). Minnesota and _Prairie Home Companion_ sure aren’t eastern. To my mind, everything that’s not eastern is at least a little western. All of the Midwest, including the westernmost reaches of some Atlantic coast states, is a subset of this. > [@Munch](#): > > Both of these threads seem to really be divided between those arguing for a geographic definition versus those going for a cultural/historic definition. It’s both. The relevant geography is the natural geography, not lines of longitude. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/67 "2010-07-22T15:08:01Z")
I’m only a Limey but could it be where the Great Plains start? ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/68 "2010-07-26T20:18:52Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I’m only a Limey but could it be where the Great Plains start? That’d be the 100th meridian. ---
**Author:** ![craftmanic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@craftmanic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/craftmanic)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/69 "2015-02-02T18:04:44Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Inspired by [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=571232), where do you consider the American West to start? I’ve always considered the West as being the states the Rockies run through or the states west of them. Anything past that I consider “back east”. I’ve lived in Washington state all my life. However, I once heard a person refer to Pittsburgh as the West! I live in Warrenton, Oregon, which is 5 miles from Hammond, Oregon, which is the westernmost area of the state. There are probably islands in Washington state that project further into the Pacific Ocean, but unlike what your map shows, the Oregon Trail and its settlers camped in Astoria, Oregon (8 miles east of me), the westernmost point of their journey, not Oregon City as your map shows. Oregon City is appx. 80 miles east of us. ---
**Author:** ![Wilson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@Wilson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wilson)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/70 "2015-02-02T18:28:31Z")
When I grew up on Long Island, I thought the West began on the other side of the Hudson River. Now that I’m older and less provincial, I realize how wrong I was. It’s actually the other side of the Delaware River. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/71 "2015-02-02T18:38:08Z")
> [@craftmanic](#): > > I live in Warrenton, Oregon, which is 5 miles from Hammond, Oregon, which is the westernmost area of the state. There are probably islands in Washington state that project further into the Pacific Ocean, but unlike what your map shows, the Oregon Trail and its settlers camped in Astoria, Oregon (8 miles east of me), the westernmost point of their journey, not Oregon City as your map shows. Oregon City is appx. 80 miles east of us. This is an old thread and welcome to the board. I think that you are confusing the end of the Lewis and Clark trail, which did indeed end at Fort Clatsop, near Astoria and the end of the Oregon Trail. Most of the settlers who used the Oregon Trail dispersed in the Willamette Valley so showing the end of the trail near Oregon City is correct. A few settlers did go on to settle on the north coast but it is not correct to say that the main trail ended there. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/72 "2015-02-02T19:35:07Z")
The Mississipi is too far east to be a dividing line, and the Rockies are too far west. I’d suggest the 100th meridian, which was historically a big dividing line (it marked the minimum rainfall at which you could support traditional rain-fed agriculture, and population density falls off sharply west of the line). ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/73 "2015-02-02T19:43:32Z")
It has shifted over time, so you need to define the time period. heck, Cleveland was once the American West (Connecticut Western Reserve) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/74 "2015-02-02T19:46:51Z")
Has anybody considered the 100th meridian? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/75 "2015-02-02T21:08:26Z")
I would say Dakotas-Nebraska-Kansas-Colorado-New Mexico and states west. Oklahoma and Texas are in the “southwest”, and if I had to choose between south and west, I would put them in the south, mainly because Texas was a Confederate state. Missouri is definitely in what I would consider the midwest. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/76 "2015-02-02T21:18:38Z")
To me, the west starts in Colorado, or there about. Drives me nuts that Illinois is sometimes called the mid-west. It was in 1700. Not so much now. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/77 "2015-02-02T21:18:39Z")
A line running from Midland, TX to Rapid City, SD. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/78 "2015-02-03T01:22:56Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > I live in Michigan, and this is not “back East”. Yeah, if anything it’s “up north” though in Michigan itself that means something more specific (the northern part of the Lower Peninsula) ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/79 "2015-02-03T01:41:48Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > **Where does the American West begin?** I thought it was California. Of course, if that definition changes, its through no fault of mine. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2015, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093/80 "2015-02-03T02:23:11Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > A line running from Midland, TX to Rapid City, SD. I personally think that is a pretty good definition all things considered although I would move the line a little east of that and make it a jagged line rather than a straight one. My mother’s argument that the Texas West begins in the Fort Worth area has some validity. Dallas is a modern cosmopolitan Southern city but the general cultural feel starts to change rapidly once you get into downtown Fort Worth only 40 or so miles away. It still maintains its cowboy/western heritage quite well even though it is a very large city today. Any of these definitions are going to be quite fuzzy so you can’t draw an exact line. You have to take both geography and culture into account. Texas alone has several distinct regions. The Panhandle is Western by any definition because it goes further west than most of New Mexico and Colorado while East Texas is Southern. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-american-west-begin/547093.md?page=5)