Where does the Left think economic growth comes from?

The Left folks in my circle are also more interested in sustainable growth than a quick transfer of wealth to the rich. We do not celebrate huge jumps in the DOW, nor do we approve unemployment decreases based upon a minimum wage job increase in areas where minimum wage won’t buy you food, much less housing. If it’s not moving us toward the average family of four having food on the table and a warm dry place to live, then the growth is a net loss to the economy.

Large jumps in stock prices generally lead to rich people sequestering money off-shore. They seldom result in an increased tax revenue. It’s just a siphoning of wealth from the economy.

Just re-enforcing what was said upthread…

There are likely many definitions of economic growth, but in most circles I have been hearing that economic growth is tied to jobs, jobs, jobs.

Assuming economic growth means increasing the number of jobs needed, we need to consider supply and demand. If the product or service a business is selling is in demand, it can raise prices, and/or increase production. In order to increase production, it needs workers – that’s where the jobs, jobs, jobs come in. When a business does not have a product or service in demand, it can lower prices or cut production (and workers) or develop a better product with higher demand in order to survive.

Where things generally diverge is that some think that putting more money in the pockets of rich people via tax breaks will stimulate investment in businesses, which will spur hiring (Trickle-down theory). However, that theory fails to consider how much demand there is for a particular product. For example, Apple is swimming in cash, and their products are in high demand, so giving them more money (via tax breaks) wont affect their hiring practices, it will only make the business more profitable (which may be good for investors). But giving them money wont create any jobs. Giving tax breaks to a company that does not have a product that is in demand wont create any jobs, either (why would they increase production unless there was an increase in demand for their product?).

OTOH, others think that putting more money in the pockets of more people will get people to buy more stuff, thereby stimulating demand, which will spur hiring. For example, if middle class people have less of a tax burden, they can afford a new car, or appliances, or furniture or a myriad of other consumer items they otherwise would put-off purchasing, thereby stimulating the need to increase production of these things, and for businesses to hire more people.

Bottom line: Conservative thought is that you give tax breaks to the rich and to businesses, and this, in turn will lead to hiring more people due to investing and less tax burden. Liberal thought is that you give tax breaks to the middle class, and by sheer numbers, they will start spending on things they may not have purchased, which stimulates demand for products, and requires increased production, which spurs hiring.

Again, assuming the OP’s definition of economic growth = jobs, jobs, jobs.

Where does the left think economic growth comes from?

Consumer demand plays a huge role. Without consumer demand, there is no incentive for producers and investors to invest their money. People demand cars and electronics. They don’t demand turtleneck shirts that randomly cut off blood supply to the brain. That is why the former are multi-trillion dollar a year industries and the latter doesn’t exist despite the fact that the technology to create turtlenecks like that exists. People don’t demand it, so nobody makes it.

Other than that, the left thing economic growth comes from high levels of human capital and productivity. So having people have as much health and education as possible is important. Also people should have freedom to move between jobs, and our current health system makes that hard to do. Job lock due to health insurance can inhibit innovation.

On top of that, you need working infrastructure to have a good economy. Which again comes down to productivity. So high quality roads and bridges, electric infrastructure, communications technology, etc. increase productivity and make doing business easier.

Fundamentally I think both right and left started with their underlying values (for the left, egalitarianism, fairness and things like that. For the right, hierarchical social structures and a strong belief in cause/effect) and then we selectively pick out economic policies that align with our values.

Or to quote miss Dolly,

I did a simple analysis of the growth of National Net Worth by administration [1948-] and found that the four worst Presidents for growing net worth were all Republicans, Bill Clinton was the best on an annualized growth basis (5.08%) and Reagan was just middle of the road (2.55% annualized growth.)

So you have got plenty of responses. What is your view on where growth comes from?

Given the OP said they weren’t looking for a debate, I think this may be better suited for IMHO. Moving from Elections to IMHO.

[/moderating]

Nice, succinct and simple, with no ideology or value judgments.

I would specify that businesses buy goods and services, including those of workers, to emphasize the positive feedback.

It comes from Mexico.

“War is good for the economy and other growing things.”
(National Lampoon.)

I agree with a lot of what’s been posted already. There are a lot of things that combine to make an economy grow.

I would add that there are intangible things that can foster innovation. Consider how much culture the U.S. exports to the rest of the world, in areas like movies and music. Take a Delta blues guitar player, and an electronics whiz who built the first electric guitar; put those ideas together and you’re on your way to rock 'n roll. Combine Hollywood and comic books and pretty soon you’re raking in billions. I think something similar happens in technology and other fields, as well. It’s rare that one person has the whole idea by himself, but get the right group together and they can create something amazing. I don’t know what the next world-changing innovations will be, but the more different ideas we can draw on and mix together, the more likely we are to find it.

And to be fair, investment plays a role in growing an economy. I’m sure there are great ideas that never get off the ground, and there have probably been periods where our overall economic growth was hampered by a lack of capital to bring ideas to fruition. Investors take a risk, and they wouldn’t do that if they didn’t think they’d be rewarded. But they don’t grow the economy all by themselves.

I don’t know whether to post in this thread or the companion / mirror-image thread, since I don’t identify as Left or Right. I’m an anarchist. I think “left” comes closer overall, I guess.

What the fuck is an “economy” in real terms, in terms not defined by the economic system itself? What does it mean to humans and other life forms for an economy to “grow”? Is it a good thing for an economy to grow?

There was once a time when there was an incredible amount of work that needed to be done in order for the group to survive. If the work wasn’t done, the food would not be there, either because it had not been planted or harvested or because it hadn’t been defended against the raiders from the next valley over. “Ya don’t work, ya don’t eat!” The economic system as we know it originated from that situation, a means of quantifying work performed and tying access to resources such as food to the performance thereof.

Before that, there was a time when we wandered, plucking that which grew from the place it was already growing of its own accord, and periodically chasing down some of the animals and stabbing them dead, and we ate of these and the work that was required of us was much much less per week per person. The remaining human bands of hunter-gatherers “work” for an estimated average of about 7 or so hours per week to live this way. It would have been less in the era before hunter-gatherers were isolated on the lands that no one else wanted, the infertile deserts and barren spaces. We didn’t quantify labor or resources back then. We just shared what we had, because there was plenty (and also no easy means of hording a surplus).

The most common complaints about the current economy is that there aren’t enough jobs available. Not enough work to go around. I would imagine that our ancestors from either the hunter-gatherer era or the “Ya don’t work ya don’t eat” early agrarian era would be flabbergasted and have great difficulty wrapping their minds around why this constitutes a problem. “So you got all the laborers you need to do all the stuff that needs doing, that’s great!” No, you don’t understand, those who don’t have labor to do don’t get any money. We use money to track who has and who has not done their share of the load, the tasks that need doing, we use money to prevent laziness because hey, ya don’t work ya don’t eat, right? But our problem is that there isn’t enough load to go around, so lots of people who would like to be working can’t work, so we either let them starve because hey, ya don’t work ya don’t eat, or we take pity on them and take some of the money that the employed people earned and hand it over to the unemployed people so they can eat. Either way, horrible situation, woe is us, if we tax the wage-earners we remove the incentive to work, and if we don’t the folks who can’t get jobs starve.

“Well why don’t you quit using the money system then and go back to sharing what you’ve got, since you’ve got a surplus and you’ve got people willing to work if there’s work to be done?”

Oh no that would never work. That would be horrible. People would take advantage of the system and not work and still eat. We must stick with the system we’ve got in which money goes to the employed and then we tax them and provide subsidies to the unemployed so they can eat, it’s better this way.

Yeah, so. The “economy”, and the desirability that it “grow”. I think in the abstract it translates into “we would like ourselves, in the plural sense, to do more productive things so that there is more largesse to distribute”. And also “we would like more useful things for more people to do because people are bored out of their goddam tree having nothing to do, we need challenges and useful occupations for people”. Is that a fair representation of “grow the economy”? Well we’ve got a surplus. We’ve become amazingly proficient. We don’t have lots of additional challenging jobs for people unless maybe we educate them more equitably and fully and in a more flexible manner. Or put value on things that don’t happen to result in products people would pay money for but which would nevertheless improve the quality of life for people in general— that could be rewarding and challenging tasks for people, too. (No one tends to purchase clean roadside verges but if someone were to remove the litter from the roadsides we appreciate the results). (Actually corporations are now adopting stretches of highway and paying, in some sense of the word, for exactly that) (but other things of that ilk are possible)

The Left has a tendency to Blame the Rich. Have you noticed? As if the rich invented the competition game and then gamed the system on purpose to exploit and oppress and steal from the poor. That’s assbackwards. The competition game invented the rich. It’s Parker Brothers Monopoly in real life. You’ve played? You think you would win the game if you did not bankrupt your opponents? The rules say you would not. The rules say that if you did not, someone else would and they would win. The rules guarantee the outcome of oligarchies, monopolies, the rich favoring policies that make themselves richer by concentrating resources into their own hands. It’s fundamentally stupid to blame the rich as individuals as if their personal motives are responsible for the behavior observed. It’s the game. It’s the rules. It’s the economy, stupid.

The Left, on the other hand, has a good critical assessment of what they call “capitalism”, which the Right prefers to call “the free market”, and which I am simply going to call “the money system”. That critique was leveled by Karl Marx. The Right says, rightfully, that Marxism offers no solution. Indeed it doesn’t. Marxist revolutions would be rotations instead, the replacement of winners of Parker Brothers Monopoly games with the winners of political gaming of the control of the mechanism of redistribution of resources. The Big Chief game. The Right is right on about communism’s love affair with the police state. Because the Marxist solution leaves the money system fully intact (have you noticed?) then redistributes with a heavy hand. It’s Band-Aids on a bad machine at best, and its badness is defended from critics with brute force.

But that doesn’t make the critique any less accurate. The Left is spot-on about capitalism’s tendencies.

We should be as busy as we wish to be, or as busy as we need to be to meet everyone’s needs, whichever is greater. It’s less busy than we are now. We could be at comparable leisure. It’s silly to worry about people abusing the non-quantified system against the current backdrop in which vast quantities of employed people are employed doing things that are only relevant within the confined of the money-system game. If you aren’t playing Parker Brothers Monopoly you don’t need bankers. Insurance companies. Soldiers. Police officers. Stockbrokers. You finish the list.

Admittedly a functioning anarchy needs planning and communication but it’s not a profession but a civic duty of the participants. It might even be possible to have a NON-anarchy that departed from the money system, for that matter, although as an anarchist I haven’t spent much time contemplating that. The point is, the money system itself is no longer serving our interests, and the perceived need to “grow the economy” is an illusion wrought by the failures of the money system itself.

Theft. It comes from theft.

I assumed OP was intended as a joke, but was still pleased to see Dopers answer it seriously. Y’all have more patience than I do.

@ OP: On the off-chance yours wasn’t a joke, would you care to read JohnT’s response and re-evaluate your question?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
But there’s one gross confusion that an intelligent board like this shouldn’t have to contend with. Let’s try to stamp it out:

The economy and both parties have changed dramatically over the decades. Your post was the first to mention “Republicans” and you yourself seem to acknowledge that Teddy R. was the renowned “trust buster.” What gives?

Fair enough? If you already knew that the party had changed, why bring it up? Are you the same guy who writes that it was the GOP and not the Democrats who freed the slaves? Do you help write Trump’s speeches?

What are you talking about and who do you have me confused with?

Snarky_Kong said "The economy historically grows faster with democrats in office." This is only true with a date attached to it of since … Snarky_Kong came back and clarified since WWII and I agreed immediately. I suspected you could even go as far back as post Wilson but I wasn’t sure. Wasn’t my statement.

We don’t generally let incorrect statements stand here at the Dope, with a simple clarification Snarky_Kong’s post became accurate without confusion but my simple question caused you gross confusion?

It was the early Republicans that freed the slave but I doubt I’ve made a point of that in threads, I think most people are well aware of it. Must be some other poster you’re thinking of. I am pretty far from a Trumpite, I get lumped in the Bernistas but I voted for HRC as anyone except Ted Cruz was better than Trump.

I am an unabashed admirer of Theodore Roosevelt. I feel he was the best President we had. I also readily acknowledge today’s Republican Party is not his. Even in his day he belonged to Progressive Wing of the Party and not the mainstream Republican party.

As to first to mention Republicans, that is the counter to **democrats **is it not? Your post is very odd.

Mea culpa. I felt odd while I was typing the post. :stuck_out_tongue:

But the thread was about contemporary politics and conflating today’s GOP with the Party of Abe or Teddy is a pet peeve of mine. If the thread were about contemporary Greece would you bring up the Mycenaean period?

And of course your “I think most people are well aware of it” evidently does NOT include the present President of the U.S.A. among “most people.” :smack:

What Exit @35, re: “post-Wilson:”. Not sure about this. Weren’t the biggest 20th century economic growth cycles under Coolidge and Ike? Clinton would have come in third. Correct me if I’m wrong.

The Left thinks economic growth comes from money being spent on the right things, and in the right way. So does the Right - they just disagree on who decides what are the right things and in the right way.

Regards,
Shodan

Pretty much.

And you need businesses that are capable of producing the goods and services that people want to buy.

So on the money side of things, what you really need is a good balance between money in the hands of investors, and money in the hands of consumers. You don’t want a huge excess of money on either side. Not on the consumer side, because you’d get too much money chasing too little in the way of goods and services - structural inflation. And not on the investor side, because then you have too much money chasing too few viable investments, resulting in a bubble economy.

These days, we’re clearly in the latter situation, and the GOP tax bill will only make the imbalance greater.