# Where Does the Old Covenant really End? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 14, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-old-covenant-really-end/599659 "2011-10-14T18:56:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-old-covenant-really-end/599659/21 "2011-10-25T18:03:37Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I went to Hebrew School for five years and to Temple a lot - and Hell was not mentioned once. Not even to scare us. During Yom Kippur we prayed to be written into the book of life for the next year, in other words, to not die. That’s as close as it comes to salvation. You can see this even in the NT - “The wages of sin are death” - not hell, death. how many times would hell be mentioned in Joel Osteen’s church or similar? But you will find other Christians elsewhere who are more concerned with the issue. My point is that you should not confuse popular Jewish religious views and emphases of the here and now with the totality of Judaism. E.g. the 1st book of Maccabees is pretty explicit about the Jews of the time being concerned about the afterlife (resurrection). The people who refused to sacrifice to idols didn’t do so to avoid dying next year because, well, the government often killed them on the spot for this. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-old-covenant-really-end/599659/22 "2011-10-25T18:17:12Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I can imagine Judas at the last supper. > > “Will you stop it with the Bela Lugosi impressions already? Drink your blood? This is Judea, not Transylvania you nitwit. And take off that cape! And the fangs. > That’s it, I’m walkin’.” > > Yes, I’ve been listening to a lot of Lenny Bruce recently. Vampire Jesus. He gave his blood your you, now he wants it BACK. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-old-covenant-really-end/599659/23 "2011-10-25T20:45:08Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > how many times would hell be mentioned in Joel Osteen’s church or similar? But you will find other Christians elsewhere who are more concerned with the issue. > > My point is that you should not confuse popular Jewish religious views and emphases of the here and now with the totality of Judaism. E.g. the 1st book of Maccabees is pretty explicit about the Jews of the time being concerned about the afterlife (resurrection). The people who refused to sacrifice to idols didn’t do so to avoid dying next year because, well, the government often killed them on the spot for this. I don’t know who Joel Osteen is. I do know about resurrection, which isn’t quite the afterlife Christians think about. Jewish burial rituals are based on the idea that the body will be directly resurrected - this quick burial and the prohibition of autopsies. That is not hell. Please direct me to some sources of Jewish belief in hell that are in any way mainstream. You’d think the Rabbi would have gotten around to mentioning it sometime in all the sermons I heard. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-old-covenant-really-end/599659/24 "2011-10-25T21:04:09Z")
> [@MysteryMan](#): > > The contact that I had from professing “Christians” were my teachers in a rural public school. Yet these Christian believers taught evolution and anti-Christian values to thousands of young children. Obviously, their salaries were of far greater importance than their personal convictions so that was their testimony. Their convictions merited no consideration and also were of many theological persuasions. Exactly which anti-Christian values did they teach? Evolution? History? Addition? If you live in the United States, perhaps they were not worried about their salary and instead were more concerned with fulfilling their Constitutional duty as representatives of the government to not mix their private religious views with their public obligation. > [@](#): > > Their teachers span from Bishop Fulton Sheen to Oral Roberts, Herbert Armstrong, Billy Graham, John Calvin, etc. etc. They teach every conceivable idea ever come to man. Not quite - they seem a bit light on quantum physics. > [@](#): > > I saw a dead, dried-up seed emerge into life with a root hunting downward for the soil and the sprout turning green and reaching for light. The sprout split apart into two leaves. Under magnification I could see nutrients flowing through tiny veins within the new plant. (Just an accident of nature?) Try thinking a bit harder about this. Clearly a plant which produces seeds which can last longer than that of another plant will have a reproductive advantage, thus evolution says that we can expect to find plants with dried out (but not dead) seed which can germinate. Being able to transport minerals from the roots to the leaves also clearly is advantageous, and so isn’t an accident, but an expected result of evolution. That’s why the same mechanism is used for plants from tiny weeds to giant redwoods. > [@](#): > > I looked for the beginning of life – the primordial ooze that produced simple, one-celled animals. Under magnification, I saw a protozoa moving about within a drop of water. It could ingest and digest food and it displayed fear of its enemies, running away by its own locomotion. And it procreated by the dividing of its nucleus, into two identical, perfectly formed single celled animals. (Simple? No – astoundingly complex and a miracle within itself.) The primordial ooze did not produce single cell animals from scratch. The ones you see today are the product of a billion years of evolution. You didn’t see fear, by the way, you saw a chemical reaction. You should look at viruses to see the real basics. Maybe not life, but they sure evolve. > [@](#): > > So I acquired a KJV bible, a NAS bible, a Book of Mormon, a Dake commentary, a Strong’s and a Vine’s and began reading. In the bibles, I started at Genesis and was convinced by 2nd Kings that the God of Abraham was indeed the intelligent force responsible for all that I was seeing in nature. Odd. In grad school I started at Genesis and was convinced long before this point that the whole thing was a bunch of hooey, and was also upset about all the interesting stuff my teachers never taught me. All you have to do really is read Genesis critically, notice the multiple versions of the same story, the internal contradictions, and the obvious absurdities. > [@](#): > > If a genuine understanding of the scriptures is to be discovered, I’m sure the keys to finding it depends to large degree upon understanding more about Judaism and God’s chosen nation since the majority of the bible is written to, about and for Israel. > > I have never known anyone of the Jewish faith personally, but only in passing on a few rare occasions and I’m not a bible scholar, having worked my whole life in automotive manufacturing. I’ve been forced to take upon this task of study (one that I’m not particularly well suited) for lack of finding many teachers having integrity, but only having an interest in power and money. If a teacher teaches only out of an interest for power and money, that teacher is a nitwit, as our many Doper teachers would testify. Teachers for the most part do more good for less money and less power than most of us. > [@](#): > > Hey, I know my days are numbered and I’m already in the autumn of my years and moving into winter. I’m not looking further into mainstream Christianity groups where the big numbers are represented and truth is twisted and turned. Throughout the bible it has been the large groups that have chosen destruction, while only the smallest ‘remnants’ sought righteousness and found favor with God. Those who aim to take refuge in the large organizations seem to be in the greatest peril, historically. I’m no spring chicken myself, and I can assure you that the prospect of nonexistence has no terror for me. Not yet, of course, I have lots to do, but I always did like to stay up late. When my daughter was about 4 she said “Sleep is a disgusting imposition.” So is death, but like sleep, it is part of life and not a punishment for some ancient bad decision. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-old-covenant-really-end/599659/25 "2011-10-26T05:16:57Z")
> [@MysteryMan](#): > > The contact that I had from professing “Christians” were my teachers in a rural public school. Yet these Christian believers taught evolution and anti-Christian values to thousands of young children. I don’t know what “anti-Christian values” they may or may not have taught, but there is nothing “anti-Christian” about either the scientific fact of evolution nor the Theory of Evolution that Darwin proposed. > [@MysteryMan](#): > > Obviously, their salaries were of far greater importance than their personal convictions so that was their testimony. Their convictions merited no consideration and also were of many theological persuasions. Alternatively, their personal convictions did not happen to conflict with science or to coincide with yours. Given that you acknowledge that you are “not well suited” to the study in which you are engaged, it seems odd that you are willing to condemn people simply because you fail to understand them. Imposing motivations on them when you clearly have never actually discovered their genuine motivations merely means that you are willing to judge others without sufficient evidence. (You clearly have no idea what goes on at a “Pastor’s Luncheon” if you think that they are primarily interested in discussing “numbers” they are “running” or how many Baptisms they have accomplished.) All these people could quite possibly be wrong, (our non-Christian and non-believing posters would be quick to point that out), but your criteria for making those judgments are inadequate to your claims. > [@MysteryMan](#): > > If a genuine understanding of the scriptures is to be discovered, I’m sure the keys to finding it depends to large degree upon understanding more about Judaism and God’s chosen nation since the majority of the bible is written to, about and for Israel. From a Christian perspective, this is a valid starting point–with the realization that Christianity diverged from Judaism over 1900 years ago and that some of the differences are best explained in a scholarly manner, not through the ruminations of preachers whose Christian theology only extends back about 200 years and less–_e.g._, Irving, Darby, Kelly, and others. > [@MysteryMan](#): > > As I have said, I’m not here to provoke or demean anyone else. Your post I am quoting would suggest otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-old-covenant-really-end/599659/26 "2011-10-26T12:19:17Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I don’t know who Joel Osteen is. I do know about resurrection, which isn’t quite the afterlife Christians think about. Jewish burial rituals are based on the idea that the body will be directly resurrected - this quick burial and the prohibition of autopsies. That is not hell. > > Please direct me to some sources of Jewish belief in hell that are in any way mainstream. You’d think the Rabbi would have gotten around to mentioning it sometime in all the sermons I heard. What branch of Judaism were you raised in & what do you consider mainstream? I was amazed at how many Orthodox/Hassidic sites (NOT Messianic) I read which had quite detailed discussions of Sheol & Gehinnom, and the various views that those sentenced there would be purified & redeemed, finally annihilated or perhaps suffer forever (the minority view). ---
**Author:** ![MysteryMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9adbd/32.png) [@MysteryMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryMan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-old-covenant-really-end/599659/27 "2011-10-26T12:21:17Z")
I was in 6th grade science class when the irony of it struck me. Perhaps if if there had been an atheist teaching biblical origins in a Christian school it woud have sounded more logical. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-old-covenant-really-end/599659/28 "2011-10-26T14:29:02Z")
> [@MysteryMan](#): > > If a genuine understanding of the scriptures is to be discovered, I’m sure the keys to finding it depends to large degree upon understanding more about Judaism and God’s chosen nation since the majority of the bible is written to, about and for Israel. If you truly believe that, then your answer is quite simple: there is no “Old Covenant” or “New Testament”. For Jews there is the Law (and we debate exactly what it means and how it should be interpreted) but the Christian Bible is a separate entity and in no way replaces, changes, supplements or augments the Law. The Law is only for the Jewish people, who were chosen to take on that burden, and any gentile on the planet is as righteous as the most observant Jew as long as that gentile obeys the Noahide Laws. But I’m not sure why or how you believe that answer will help you. Clearly you want a Christian interpretation and not a Jewish one, else you’d have converted to Judaism instead of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-old-covenant-really-end/599659/29 "2011-10-26T15:44:40Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > What branch of Judaism were you raised in & what do you consider mainstream? I was amazed at how many Orthodox/Hassidic sites (NOT Messianic) I read which had quite detailed discussions of Sheol & Gehinnom, and the various views that those sentenced there would be purified & redeemed, finally annihilated or perhaps suffer forever (the minority view). I think there was a lengthy thread around somewhere about Jewish notions of the afterlife, but i couldn’t find it - suffice it to say that different Jews have different beliefs on the matter, but in general, in Judaism as an issue the afterlife has far, far less significance than in Christianity (or Islam). For example - the “official” Conservative Jewish position on the existence of an afterlife is best descibed as agnostisism on that issue - that is, Conservatives believe either that some form of afterlife literally exists, or that it is purely metaphorical, but either way is considered fully ‘okay’. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-old-covenant-really-end/599659/30 "2011-10-26T16:25:56Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > What branch of Judaism were you raised in & what do you consider mainstream? I was amazed at how many Orthodox/Hassidic sites (NOT Messianic) I read which had quite detailed discussions of Sheol & Gehinnom, and the various views that those sentenced there would be purified & redeemed, finally annihilated or perhaps suffer forever (the minority view). Conservative, though the Reform side of Conservative, in that men and women sat together in shul, which was not the case for some of my friends. If you remember, the prophet Elisha was brought directly into heaven, which would be no big deal if all righteous people went there. Purification before rebirth is a lot different from a Purgatory or other place where the consciousness survives. I think there is some belief that the soul survives, but that is different from the person. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-old-covenant-really-end/599659/31 "2011-10-26T16:31:54Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I think there was a lengthy thread around somewhere about Jewish notions of the afterlife, but i couldn’t find it - suffice it to say that different Jews have different beliefs on the matter, but in general, in Judaism as an issue the afterlife has far, far less significance than in Christianity (or Islam). > > For example - the “official” Conservative Jewish position on the existence of an afterlife is best descibed as agnostisism on that issue - that is, Conservatives believe either that some form of afterlife literally exists, or that it is purely metaphorical, but either way is considered fully ‘okay’. What is clear is that there is no sorting of destinations. During Yom Kippur you do not pray to be placed in heaven, but in the Book of Life, that is, to live. I’d like a reference to a mainstream prayer book that says otherwise. No doubt someone augments beliefs with some sort of hell, since there is contamination from widespread Christianity, but there is not a lot of Biblical justification for it I’ve ever seen. BTW, though the phrase “the wages of sin are death” has been explained as meaning soul death, a straightforward reading fits the standard Jewish interpretation quite well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-old-covenant-really-end/599659.md?page=1)