# Where does the Right think that job growth comes from? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 29, 2017, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-right-think-that-job-growth-comes-from/803001 "2017-11-29T02:34:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-right-think-that-job-growth-comes-from/803001/41 "2017-12-02T05:37:54Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Really?:dubious: He’s exaggerating but there is talk of changing tax law in a way that penalizes graduate students. It would mean a smaller number of them. We live in a world where increasingly the cutting edge is basically a realm where you need a graduate degree to contribute. Machine Learning is generally taught in grad school. Same with all the advanced engineering courses. Innovation comes from a combination of 1% moments of brilliance and a 99% fuckton of blood, sweat, and tears by armadas of people working together. People who these days generally need graduate degrees. So it would appear to be a step backwards to penalize grad students. Especially if the reason those grad students are being penalized is to grab a few thousand bucks in extra taxes from hundreds of thousands of grad students…just so that a tiny number of wealthy campaign donors can get a break of 80k or so on their annual taxes. This does not feel like a good decision. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-right-think-that-job-growth-comes-from/803001/42 "2017-12-02T15:38:30Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > You’re still failing to understand the difference between creating wealth and raising prices. The fact that a landlord can gouge more out of a renter does not mean there has been an increase in wealth, A large part of the higher cost of housing is because increasingly, governments are raising minimum housing standards so that no affordable legal housing exists at all for low-income workers. If the workers’ income is constant but his housing costs rise, where is the growth in the economy? > > This thread is about job creation, but clothing costs have dropped sharply. This is not because of job creation, but rather job elimination, replaced by cheaper outsourced labor. Clothing costs have dropped sharply and clothing manufacture went from Manhattan to the south to overseas. But the total number of jobs kept going up. Job growth comes from good monetary policy which keeps up full employment, workforce expansion, and lowering the rate of structural employment. Workforce expansion needs productivity growth which raises wages. Structural employment lowering means deregulating labor laws. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-right-think-that-job-growth-comes-from/803001/43 "2017-12-02T16:21:45Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Job growth comes from a demand for labor. And a demand for labor comes from? I’ll answer for you. Lower and middle class having the ability to purchase things. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-right-think-that-job-growth-comes-from/803001/44 "2017-12-07T21:17:04Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > And a demand for labor comes from? > > I’ll answer for you. Lower and middle class having the ability to purchase things. Uh - more like someone, somewhere being able to buy goods and services created in your economy. So if Vladimir Putin wants to buy a million authentic Charleston handwoven seagrass baskets, that creates job growth in the South Carolina low country. I believe part of the purpose of the nex tax scheme is to make it more attractive/competitive to create products and services in the US rather than elsewhere. This may work. Or, like has happened with some state incentives for industry, it may start a race to taxation bottom among economies. I guess we get to see. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-right-think-that-job-growth-comes-from/803001/45 "2017-12-08T00:34:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > In the real world, growth does come from innovation, but innovation doesn’t come from investment. Largely, it comes from graduate students. New economic ideas don’t come from billionaires. New economic ideas come from people who are trying to become billionaires. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-right-think-that-job-growth-comes-from/803001/46 "2017-12-08T00:59:45Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > And a demand for labor comes from? Two large sources are: 1. Government-mandated bureaucracy. 2. Litigation complexity. Huge numbers of private sector workers do nothing but protect their employer from either regulatory agencies or prospects for litigation. 22-million Americans work for government agen cies, nearly double the 12-million in the manufacturing sector who actually produce goods the consumers buy. The government has open-ended capacity to expand that number whenever more jobs are politically desired. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-right-think-that-job-growth-comes-from/803001/47 "2017-12-08T03:08:14Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > And a demand for labor comes from? > > I’ll answer for you. Lower and middle class having the ability to purchase things. Demand for labor comes from the people purchasing labor. I hire someone because I anticipate that doing so will make me money. If I wait for lower and middle class (or the rich or foreigners or aliens) to knock on my door with money, then I’m already too late. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-right-think-that-job-growth-comes-from/803001/48 "2017-12-08T03:22:12Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Two large sources are: > > 1. Government-mandated bureaucracy. > 2. Litigation complexity. > > Huge numbers of private sector workers do nothing but protect their employer from either regulatory agencies or prospects for litigation. 22-million Americans work for government agen cies, nearly double the 12-million in the manufacturing sector who actually produce goods the consumers buy. The government has open-ended capacity to expand that number whenever more jobs are politically desired. And 100 million provide services that I and most other people gladly buy. You listed total payroll. That is not demand. Even with the economy hiccup, we added 7 million to nonfarm payrolls 2006-2016. Less than a quarter million were government workers. So maybe you’ll come back with the missing data to support your…argument. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-right-think-that-job-growth-comes-from/803001/49 "2017-12-08T06:18:51Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > And 100 million provide services that I and most other people gladly buy. You listed total payroll. That is not demand. Even with the economy hiccup, we added 7 million to nonfarm payrolls 2006-2016. Less than a quarter million were government workers. So maybe you’ll come back with the missing data to support your…argument. Wait – what was it that I said that was incorrect or untrue? I said nothing about total payroll. I said 22-million people have jobs in which they produce exactly zero of marketable economic value. And as I pointed out, many (I don’t know how many) of your 100-million have jobs only because regulatory agencies require that records be kept. Including, for example, every tax accountant. None of whom produce goods and services that incrase the national economic wealth. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-right-think-that-job-growth-comes-from/803001/50 "2017-12-08T09:01:45Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > He’s exaggerating but there is talk of changing tax law in a way that penalizes graduate students. It would mean a smaller number of them. > > We live in a world where increasingly the cutting edge is basically a realm where you need a graduate degree to contribute. Machine Learning is generally taught in grad school. Same with all the advanced engineering courses. > > Innovation comes from a combination of 1% moments of brilliance and a 99% fuckton of blood, sweat, and tears by armadas of people working together. People who these days generally need graduate degrees. And in fact, for those whose lives are dedicated to research, very often the biggest chunk of their 1% took place while in graduate school. Apparently sleep deprivation and a diet where bologna on white bread with mustard is a luxury (it’s got mustard!) produce the kind of semiconscious moments where creativity thrives. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-right-think-that-job-growth-comes-from/803001/51 "2017-12-08T13:49:48Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Wait – what was it that I said that was incorrect or untrue? I said nothing about total payroll. I said 22-million people have jobs in which they produce exactly zero of marketable economic value. > > And as I pointed out, many (I don’t know how many) of your 100-million have jobs only because regulatory agencies require that records be kept. Including, for example, every tax accountant. None of whom produce goods and services that incrase the national economic wealth. “Payroll” is BLSese for headcount. More fully “employees on nonfarm payrolls” but often just shortened to “total nonfarm payrolls”, e.g. at [FRED](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PAYEMS). And as a minor nitpick “government agency” has a narrower meaning that doesn’t cover all government employees, but I doubt anyone is confused. The thread is about job growth, which we are seeing. I _think_ we all agree that this growth comes from some sort of demand. But we are not seeing significant growth in government employees. Most of those 22 million government employees are state and local employees. The majority of state and local employees are in the business of directly or indirectly providing education services. Which certainly has nonzero economic value. We’ve just chosen (or had it chosen for us) to provide most of those services via the government. Although private options certainly exist. But the reason I’m asking you to bring us some data to work with is that you have what is actually a very interesting narrative where most people will see at least some inkling of merit. That a good chunk of our workforce and perhaps a good chunk of the _growth_ in our workforce is government-mandated (again either directly or indirectly) make-work that doesn’t really do much to make your life and my life better. Although I don’t believe you’ve come out and said exactly that, so that is words I’m putting in your mouth; we can test some other hypothesis if desired. And the reason that narrative is so interesting is because it’s counter to what I get when I punch this into Google: government regulation creates jobs Which returns a bunch of Trump job-killing regulations articles. But we need something more firm than looking at bank towers, otherwise we miss out that there are fewer per-capita bank employees than there used to be. I’m happy to assist. Others might too. We could start a new thread if needed. And I look at this more in terms of workforce availability. An individual occupied by make-work isn’t available for creating value for the rest of us. Accounting skills aren’t just useful for finding tax loopholes. But as long as the return of finding tax loopholes is high, those skills won’t be available elsewhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-right-think-that-job-growth-comes-from/803001.md?page=2)