# Where does the Scottish Everendum stand? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026 "2014-12-01T12:53:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/221 "2014-12-09T17:08:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What land grab? They’re already part of the UK. Oh, you must mean a land grab by _Scotland_. Right, they would probably not succeed with that. 😉 > > I’m not the one who’s refusing to explore and understand \*why \*his side lost the debate and the election, am I now? :dubious: > > \*\*Ramira \*\*is right - yahooism is an ugly thing wherever it appears. As noted above there is current legislation recognising Scottish land and sea rights as being essentially under Scottish Law and controlled by Scotland. The land and wealth of Scotland is not there to be plundered at will by a rUK. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/222 "2014-12-09T17:24:30Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > An election of a Holyrood Parliament on a manifesto claiming the right to independence and persistent polls in favour of a further referendum- would ignoring that be the Westminster Parliament ‘frustrating legitimate calls for independence’? I think an independence referendum is sufficiently disruptive that Westminster could legitimately say “we’re not having one every two years and certainly not every time there’s a bump in the polls” ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/223 "2014-12-09T17:29:28Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think an independence referendum is sufficiently disruptive that Westminster could legitimately say “we’re not having one every two years and certainly not every time there’s a bump in the polls” And expensive. 13.7 million quid every time there’s a bump in the polls. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/224 "2014-12-09T17:32:53Z")
The problem for any government is that it could be seen to be frustrating legitimate desire of a sovereign people if they ignored a clear desire for a further referendum. Politicians have to live in the real world, not in a fantasy one. Having once accepted that a referendum is the correct way to settle an issue, even when it looked like there would never be a vote for independence, it would seem starnge to then a few yers later refuse one when the clear desire of the Scottish people was for a further referendum. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/225 "2014-12-09T17:34:15Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > And expensive. 13.7 million quid every time there’s a bump in the polls. That would be about 20p per head of UK population. Maybe Holyrood could spring for it out of its own tax revenues? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/226 "2014-12-09T17:36:31Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > We shall see. > > The Independence movement in Scotland is stronger now than it has ever been I thought there was just the voting that voted no? How is it this is seen as stronger than ever… > [@Pjen](#): > > Politicians have to live in the real world, not in a fantasy one. There is an irony that is I think is not intended in this writing. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/227 "2014-12-09T17:38:05Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > That would be about 20p per head of UK population. Maybe Holyrood could spring for it out of its own tax revenues? Or you could just accept that a referendum should actually be binding for a decent amount of time. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/228 "2014-12-09T18:01:34Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Or you could just accept that a referendum should actually be binding for a decent amount of time. Ah, if only that was part of the Law. But it isn’t! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/229 "2014-12-09T18:08:07Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Ah, if only that was part of the Law. But it isn’t! The law is that the UK government gets to decide and they could reasonably limit referendums to every 10 years or something. The Parti Quebecois, with separation in their manifesto got elected plenty of times but even they knew Quebecers didn’t want a referendum after every election. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/230 "2014-12-09T18:10:52Z")
Just in case people are unaware of what is happening in Scotland politically: [http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/297729-stv-poll-labour-would-annihilated-if-general-election-held-tomorrow/](http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/297729-stv-poll-labour-would-annihilated-if-general-election-held-tomorrow/) The Labour Party in Scotland would face political annihilation if there was a general election tomorrow, according to a poll commissioned by STV. The Ipsos Mori survey shows Labour would poll 23% of the Scottish vote, leaving them with just four seats in Scotland. In comparison, support for the SNP has surged to 52%, giving them a projected 54 seats at Westminster. The Liberal Democrats would have one and the Conservative party would be left without any Scottish MPs. Another poll by YouGov for the Times, released later on Thursday, put Scottish Labour four points higher on 27%, a result they calculated would give the party ten seats. The full breakdown of STV’s Ipsos Mori poll is SNP 52%, Scottish Labour 23%, Scottish Conservatives 10%, Scottish Liberal Democrats 6%, Scottish Green Party 6%, Ukip 2% and 1% support for others. The 1026 participants were surveyed between October 22 and 29 as the row broke over leadership of the Scottish Labour party. They were asked how they would vote if there was a general election tomorrow. At the 2010 general election Labour received 42% of the Scottish vote and the SNP 19.9%. The figures, which exclude those who do not know how they would vote, would dramatically reduce Labour’s 40 Scottish MPs - jeopardising Ed Miliband’s chances of becoming the next prime minister. Those who would lose their seat include Jim Murphy, who is standing to be the next leader of Scottish Labour, Douglas Alexander and Margaret Curran, according to seat predictor [electoralcalculus.co.uk](http://electoralcalculus.co.uk). The site assumes uniform swings across constituencies. The only Scottish Labour MPs who would survive would be Willie Bain in Glasgow North East, Tom Clarke in Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill, Gordon Brown in Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath and Ian Davidson in Glasgow South West. The Liberal Democrats would lose all but one of their seats, with only Scottish secretary Alistair Carmichael surviving and high-profile victims including Danny Alexander and Charles Kennedy. In comparison, the SNP would go from having six seats at Westminster to 54. The poll also asked participants whether they are satisfied by the job being done by the leaders of political parties. Just a quarter of Scots are happy with Prime Minister David Cameron’s performance but 65% think both the First Minister Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon, who is replacing him next month, are doing a good job. UK Labour leader Ed Miliband scored just 18%, with Nick Clegg doing slightly better at 19%. SNP deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon, who will shortly be named First Minister, said: "Support of 52% for the SNP at Westminster is further proof that the referendum has changed Scottish politics forever. More and more people are choosing to put their trust in the SNP as disillusion with the entire Westminster establishment grows. “London Labour’s treatment of their party in Scotland as nothing more than a ‘branch office’ has left them in meltdown. As a result, people across the country realise that Ed Miliband doesn’t speak for them and Labour support is in free-fall." In an interview with ITV News, Labour leader Ed Miliband accepted that unless Labour could turn the polls around in Scotland he won’t be Prime Minister. He said: "This poll is a snapshot not a prediction and let’s see where we are at the general election. I’m determined and believe we can win people back to our cause in Scotland. “We’re going to show the people of Scotland how we’re going to change Scotland, how we’re going to change the United Kingdom. Yes, it’s a big task but I know we can meet it.” STV political editor Bernard Ponsonby said: "This is the most dramatic poll findings ever to be published in Scotland and underlines the scale of the challenge for Labour leaders both north and south of the border. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/231 "2014-12-09T18:12:28Z")
> **[Scotland could get ‘revenge’ for broken referendum promises, says Salmond](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/14/scotland-broken-referendum-promises-alex-salmond)** > > First minister says a ‘huge gap’ has opened between what was promised by Westminster leaders and command paper Alex Salmond says Scotland could “exact revenge” on the Westminster parties at the ballot box because a huge gap has opened up between their proposals for devolution and what they promised on the eve of the independence referendum. The first minister and Scottish National party (SNP) leader, who announced he would step down after losing last month’s independence vote, said the devolution plans put forward in a new command paper on Monday were weak. With the Commons due to debate devolution on Tuesday afternoon, Salmond told the BBC’s Radio 4 Today programme: “There is a huge gap that is emerging between the vow – the last-minute, desperate promise made under the guarantee of Gordon Brown by the three Westminster leaders – and what was suggested in the command paper, which was just a regurgitation of what has been indicated last spring, promises which were so weak they hardly featured in the no campaign. “Right now, the initial judgment that’s coming from Scotland is that people have no confidence in Tory guarantees and are absolutely fizzing about what looks like a preparation for a betrayal of a strong commitment made.” Despite previously saying the referendum would settle the question of Scottish independence for a generation, Salmond suggested this may no longer apply if the Scots felt conned and tricked. “Circumstances obviously can change. Clearly if you had a situation where the three leaders made such a public vow – not even a political promises but a vow – in the last few desperate hours when they thought they were losing the referendum campaign, then that would be a very substantial change in circumstances.” He pointed out that the SNP now had a 10-point lead in opinion polls for the general election next year, which poses a significant threat to Labour and Liberal Democrat seats. Salmond added: “These matters ultimately are for the people of Scotland to decide. It’s the people of Scotland who will decide whether it’s satisfactory to be conned and tricked by Westminster leaders or who will exact a revenge at the ballot box, which is their democratic right to do.” The command paper published by the government on Monday did not appear to contain many new details of proposals for devolution and was condemned by the SNP as a “cut-and-paste job”. Ministers have promised a cross-party agreement brokered by Lord Smith of Kelvin by the end of November and draft legislation in January. However, significant differences remain, as the Conservatives and Lib Dems are happy to hand over full income tax powers to Holyrood, while Labour is only willing to see an upward variation of 15p from the rate of the rest of the UK. There is also nervousness that the Conservatives are trying to tie the proposals to a deal for making sure England is fairly represented in the union – the issue of English votes for English laws. Over the weekend, Gordon Brown, the Labour former prime minister who set out the joint no campaign devolution package, accused David Cameron of threatening to make Scottish MPs into second class citizens in Westminster, if English votes for English laws went ahead. He also said the plans for Scottish devolution were not radical enough and should include matters such as the environment and transport. Speaking straight after Salmond on the Today programme, William Hague, the leader of the Commons, again denied that plans for reform of the English constitutional position would affect Scottish devolution. He also accused Salmond of “looking and hoping for a sense of betrayal”. “Every commitment made by not only the Conservatives, but the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties about what would happen if the result of the Scottish referendum was no, every commitment has so far been kept and will be,” Hague said. “All of the party leaders are absolutely unequivocal that the commitment will be met. So there is no reneging here, however much it might suit Scottish nationalists to try to say that there is.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/232 "2014-12-09T18:16:04Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Just in case people are unaware of what is happening in Scotland politically: One thing everyone else in this thread IS aware of is that the vote was already held and your side lost. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/233 "2014-12-09T18:20:29Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The law is that the UK government gets to decide and they could reasonably limit referendums to every 10 years or something. The Parti Quebecois, with separation in their manifesto got elected plenty of times but even they knew Quebecers didn’t want a referendum after every election. Westminster ‘could’ do that if there was a Government that was able to get it passed. First they would have to have a majority that would support such an anti-democratic bill, and then they would have to get it past the notoriously defensive Lords who would be likely to insist that it went to confirmation by a further election. But by doing so it would just stoke mistrust north of the border. They are in a no-win situation. I suspect that any Government will have more important matters on its hands than moving a clearly undemocratic measure against the will of the Scottish people. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/234 "2014-12-09T18:21:46Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > One thing everyone else in this thread IS aware of is that the vote was already held and your side lost. :dubious: Straw man again- I totally accept that the vote was lost. But I am very interested in how things will develop over the next five years. All options seem open and will depend on circumstance. Nothing is written in stone! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/235 "2014-12-09T18:31:39Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Straw man again- I totally accept that the vote was lost. Sure doesn’t look that way from any of your posts here, laddie. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/236 "2014-12-09T18:36:14Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Westminster ‘could’ do that if there was a Government that was able to get it passed.scientifi First they would have to have a majority that would support such an anti-democratic bill, and then they would have to get it past the notoriously defensive Lords who would be likely to insist that it went to confirmation by a further election. > > But by doing so it would just stoke mistrust north of the border. They are in a no-win situation. > > I suspect that any Government will have more important matters on its hands than moving a clearly undemocratic measure against the will of the Scottish people. Isn’t it actually the opposite situation? You’d need to have a parliament willing to call a referendum, not one that would stop it. It’s not anti democratic to refuse to call a referendum every time some people stamp their feet. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/237 "2014-12-09T18:38:27Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Straw man again- I totally accept that the vote was lost. > > But I am very interested in how things will develop over the next five years. > > All options seem open and will depend on circumstance. Nothing is written in stone! Nothing’s going to change over the next five years, except the rather nasty possibility of UKIP power sharing if the SNP don’t fuck off sooner rather than later. As unpleasant as they are, they’re not actually hypocritical traitors - at least Sinn Fein had the honesty not to sit at Westminster. No person working against the Union should be in Parliament, that’s just absurd, and I very much doubt any party will accept a coalition with them. At least not if they want to continue to exist beyond the end of that government. Fortunately, the majority of Scots agree with me that independence is not a good idea, and hopefully they’ll have the sense to vote that way in the upcoming election. Any vote for the SNP is a vote for years of political disaster that will harm everyone involved. Much like UKIP, really. Don’t vote for nationalists of any stripe, they are simply out to ruin your country for romantic reasons. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/238 "2014-12-09T18:48:20Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You’d need to have a parliament willing to call a referendum, not one that would stop it. Don’t you get it yet? They’ll \*have \*to do whatever The Sovereign People of Scotland demand, because Fuck Yeah or something. Except that it doesn’t count if what they demand is for the separatists to shut up and sod off. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/239 "2014-12-09T18:55:17Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Nothing is written in stone! Why [sure it is](http://scotlandinmay.house-of-lynn.com/images/CullodenCairn2.jpg). Scotland - conquered and subjected for forever more :). ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/240 "2014-12-09T21:17:20Z")
So if I move to England and agree to vote the right way (and watch football and try to understand cricket), can I get a neo-colonialist membership card? 'Cause honestly it sounds kinda cool. I mean, in addition to having Scottish servants, do you get discounts at restaurants or extra frequent flyer miles or something? Are there regular excursions to exploit Scotland (raping, pillaging, prima noctre and all that)? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026.md?page=13)