# Where does the Scottish Everendum stand? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026 "2014-12-01T12:53:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/241 "2014-12-09T22:54:37Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > [Scotland could get ‘revenge’ for broken referendum promises, says Salmond | Scotland | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/14/scotland-broken-referendum-promises-alex-salmond) > > Alex Salmond says Scotland could “exact revenge” on the Westminster parties at the ballot box because a huge gap has opened up between their proposals for devolution and what they promised on the eve of the independence referendum. > > The first minister and Scottish National party (SNP) leader, who announced he would step down after losing last month’s independence vote, said the devolution plans put forward in a new command paper on Monday were weak. > > With the Commons due to debate devolution on Tuesday afternoon, Salmond told the BBC’s Radio 4 Today programme: “There is a huge gap that is emerging between the vow – the last-minute, desperate promise made under the guarantee of Gordon Brown by the three Westminster leaders – and what was suggested in the command paper, which was just a regurgitation of what has been indicated last spring, promises which were so weak they hardly featured in the no campaign. > > “Right now, the initial judgment that’s coming from Scotland is that people have no confidence in Tory guarantees and are absolutely fizzing about what looks like a preparation for a betrayal of a strong commitment made.” > > Despite previously saying the referendum would settle the question of Scottish independence for a generation, Salmond suggested this may no longer apply if the Scots felt conned and tricked. > > “Circumstances obviously can change. Clearly if you had a situation where the three leaders made such a public vow – not even a political promises but a vow – in the last few desperate hours when they thought they were losing the referendum campaign, then that would be a very substantial change in circumstances.” > > He pointed out that the SNP now had a 10-point lead in opinion polls for the general election next year, which poses a significant threat to Labour and Liberal Democrat seats. > > Salmond added: “These matters ultimately are for the people of Scotland to decide. It’s the people of Scotland who will decide whether it’s satisfactory to be conned and tricked by Westminster leaders or who will exact a revenge at the ballot box, which is their democratic right to do.” > > The command paper published by the government on Monday did not appear to contain many new details of proposals for devolution and was condemned by the SNP as a “cut-and-paste job”. > > Ministers have promised a cross-party agreement brokered by Lord Smith of Kelvin by the end of November and draft legislation in January. > > However, significant differences remain, as the Conservatives and Lib Dems are happy to hand over full income tax powers to Holyrood, while Labour is only willing to see an upward variation of 15p from the rate of the rest of the UK. > > There is also nervousness that the Conservatives are trying to tie the proposals to a deal for making sure England is fairly represented in the union – the issue of English votes for English laws. > > Over the weekend, Gordon Brown, the Labour former prime minister who set out the joint no campaign devolution package, accused David Cameron of threatening to make Scottish MPs into second class citizens in Westminster, if English votes for English laws went ahead. > > He also said the plans for Scottish devolution were not radical enough and should include matters such as the environment and transport. > > Speaking straight after Salmond on the Today programme, William Hague, the leader of the Commons, again denied that plans for reform of the English constitutional position would affect Scottish devolution. He also accused Salmond of “looking and hoping for a sense of betrayal”. > > “Every commitment made by not only the Conservatives, but the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties about what would happen if the result of the Scottish referendum was no, every commitment has so far been kept and will be,” Hague said. > > “All of the party leaders are absolutely unequivocal that the commitment will be met. So there is no reneging here, however much it might suit Scottish nationalists to try to say that there is.” I’m starting to think that, contrary to some analysts, an independent Scotland could be economically viable solely on the basis of exporting paragraphs. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/242 "2014-12-09T23:01:29Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think an independence referendum is sufficiently disruptive that Westminster could legitimately say “we’re not having one every two years and certainly not every time there’s a bump in the polls” Would an independent Scotland hold a referendum on rejoining the UK every time there was a dip in the polls? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/243 "2014-12-09T23:09:58Z")
You folk who don’t live in Scotland are lucky you don’t have to deal with this level of zoomerism in real life. It’s pretty wearying. I never expected to see such a cadre of True Believers emerge. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/244 "2014-12-09T23:51:24Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Every time you go on about colonialism you come across as a little bit more stupid. > > . . . it just makes you look ill informed, intellectually lacking and intentionally offensive. > > Just grow up . . . If you want to hurl insults, take it to The BBQ Pit. Do not continuee this behavior in this forum. = = = Pjen, your continued references to colonialism do appear to be inserted solely to rile up your opponents. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/245 "2014-12-10T19:27:02Z")
Here’s a question: Could the rest of the UK have a referendum to kick Scotland out? If so and it passes, what would Parliament and/or the Queen do? Second question: Scottish independence referendum passes, Parliament says “Fuck 'em.” and passes a bill to grant independence but QE2 withholds Royal Assent refusing to allow the nation to be broken up. End of the Monarchy? End of QE2’s reign and welcome Charles III? Parliament dissolved or PM dismissed? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/246 "2014-12-10T19:44:14Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Pjen, your continued references to colonialism do appear to be inserted solely to rile up your opponents. I think he really believes it. Isn’t the basis of the separatist case the claim that the UK is somehow a foreign power somehow subjugating Scotland? That’s purely an appeal to emotion, and any effective response also requires emotion. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/247 "2014-12-10T20:37:40Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I think he really believes it. Isn’t the basis of the separatist case the claim that the UK is somehow a foreign power somehow subjugating Scotland? That’s purely an appeal to emotion, and any effective response also requires emotion. Comments on moderation belong on ATMB. If you bothered to read what I have posted, I am not a fervent nationalist or emotive about the issue. I am rational about political entities having as much devolved power as possible (admiring for instance the German or American federal models. Having moved to Scotland I was keen on further devolution but do not believe that this has happened fast enough. I feel quite sure that we shall move in that direction if the current mood here continues. But I also believe that the English response is quite likely to move the electorate towards independence. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/248 "2014-12-10T20:41:07Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Here’s a question: > Could the rest of the UK have a referendum to kick Scotland out? If so and it passes, what would Parliament and/or the Queen do? It could indeed - What Parliament decides is the law. If it passed, then Scotland would be ejected, Singapore-style. > [@](#): > > Second question: > Scottish independence referendum passes, Parliament says “Fuck 'em.” and passes a bill to grant independence but QE2 withholds Royal Assent refusing to allow the nation to be broken up. End of the Monarchy? End of QE2’s reign and welcome Charles III? Parliament dissolved or PM dismissed? If the Queen refused to accept the advice of Her Ministers then the Government would be obliged to resign. The Queen must then find a new Prime Minister, and likely in such a scenario nobody would be willing to work with Her. It would politicize the monarchy, and undermine one of the fundamental tenets of our Constitution. I reckon it would end with the Queen’s abdication at the very least, but probably the entire monarchy would be abolished too. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/249 "2014-12-10T20:41:34Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Here’s a question: > Could the rest of the UK have a referendum to kick Scotland out? If so and it passes, what would Parliament and/or the Queen do? > > Second question: > Scottish independence referendum passes, Parliament says “Fuck 'em.” and passes a bill to grant independence but QE2 withholds Royal Assent refusing to allow the nation to be broken up. End of the Monarchy? End of QE2’s reign and welcome Charles III? Parliament dissolved or PM dismissed? No state can strip its citizens of their nationality if it would make them stateless. But Westminster could make life in Scotland bad enough to encourage independence. The Assent to legislation required of the monarch is not possible given the set up of government. It is like a bee sting- it may be effective once but would result in the death of the organism. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/250 "2014-12-10T20:43:49Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > No state can strip its citizens of their nationality if it would make them stateless. But Westminster could make life in Scotland bad enough to encourage independence. This isn’t about making them stateless, it’s about ejecting them from the UK. Malaysia did that to Singapore once. > [@](#): > > The Assent to legislation required of the monarch is not possible given the set up of government. It is like a bee sting- it may be effective once but would result in the death of the organism. That’s actually a good analogy! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/251 "2014-12-10T20:46:14Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > If you bothered to read what I have posted, I am not a fervent nationalist or emotive about the issue. I am rational about political entities having as much devolved power as possible (admiring for instance the German or American federal models. Having moved to Scotland I was keen on further devolution but do not believe that this has happened fast enough. I feel quite sure that we shall move in that direction if the current mood here continues. But I also believe that the English response is quite likely to move the electorate towards independence. If you didn’t notice, there was a referendum not long ago where the majority of the Scottish electorate disagreed with you, and settled that question for the foreseeable future. Until and unless there’s a massive change in circumstances - not just poll figures, actual social or economic change - there’s no need to ask them again. Your disdain for the views of your adopted countrymen is rather sad, really. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/252 "2014-12-10T20:56:38Z")
Times and international law change. If the UK ejected some of its citizens from the protection of British Citizenship then it would be in breach of several treaties and fond its international relations severely impeded ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/253 "2014-12-10T20:58:00Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If you didn’t notice, there was a referendum not long ago where the majority of the Scottish electorate disagreed with you, and settled that question for the foreseeable future. Until and unless there’s a massive change in circumstances - not just poll figures, actual social or economic change - there’s no need to ask them again. > > Your disdain for the views of your adopted countrymen is rather sad, really. In your humble Opinion. Wrong forum. There is no law preventing a subsequent referendum - that is all dependent on circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/254 "2014-12-10T21:10:51Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Times and international law change. If the UK ejected some of its citizens from the protection of British Citizenship then it would be in breach of several treaties and fond its international relations severely impeded This is only really a thought experiment. We were discussing the domestic constitutional situation, without context of whatever international obligations the UK is currently under. Anyway, if it came to such a state that England wanted Scotland out but Scotland wanted to stay in, we’d be in the Twilight Zone! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/255 "2014-12-10T22:20:21Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > This is only really a thought experiment. We were discussing the domestic constitutional situation, without context of whatever international obligations the UK is currently under. > > Anyway, if it came to such a state that England wanted Scotland out but Scotland wanted to stay in, we’d be in the Twilight Zone! Agreed. It is so unlikely it is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/256 "2014-12-11T00:28:39Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Comments on moderation belong on ATMB. If that’s what they are, instead of comments about the absurdity of the OP’s position. Which is what that was. BTW, you do need to learn the meaning of “straw man” - you’ve been throwing the term around entirely too loosely. > [@](#): > > I am not … emotive about the issue. Cheers. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/257 "2014-12-11T05:29:26Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If that’s what they are, instead of comments about the absurdity of the OP’s position. Which is what that was. BTW, you do need to learn the meaning of “straw man” - you’ve been throwing the term around entirely too loosely. > > Cheers. 😉 I know exactly what a straw man argument is thank you; and when I accuse someone of imputing ideas to me that I have not supported (as happens frequently on this thread) then I feel free to point that out. If you feel that I have somehow used the phrase wrongly, then you will have no problem giving specific references to what I said and what the original statement was that I was asserting was a straw man. If not, please withdraw the accusation. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/258 "2014-12-11T06:15:27Z")
no, it looks rather more like you use the phrase “straw man” to side step criticisms and avoid engaging in responses where you know you are weak. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/259 "2014-12-11T07:28:01Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > no, it looks rather more like you use the phrase “straw man” to side step criticisms and avoid engaging in responses where you know you are weak. If you are going to cast aspersions you should give cites and examples. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/260 "2014-12-11T07:47:16Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Times and international law change. If the UK ejected some of its citizens from the protection of British Citizenship then it would be in breach of several treaties and fond its international relations severely impeded Eh, so? The UK did much worse in Iraq as far as international law is concerned and tell me wbst effect that had on the UK? Did the UK financial services industry collapse? Did people stop buying British products? Or visiting Britain? Did British leaders get hauled up for war crimes? If it happened the it will have little effect. The UK is a large and very powerful and influential country, with or without Scotland. No one is going to risk drawing the ire of Britain over the Scots. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026.md?page=14)