# Where does the Scottish Everendum stand? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026 "2014-12-01T12:53:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/321 "2014-12-12T08:56:03Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > **Yes it is standard** which is making the whole argument more and more bizarre and in a way it is amusing… the statements about the international law and the UE law become more and more a fantasy, but it is hard to understand the reason. It was in reading this that made me comment… I do not care about the indepedence of Scotland but the arguments made here are simply all fantasies that have no coherence. But Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians and South Africans did not lose their citizenship on independence (remeber Zola Budd.) How do you explain that? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/322 "2014-12-12T09:18:23Z")
What is the point of this thread? Has **Pjen** ever conceded that she is wrong on a point of law, the politics or economics of a situation, etc. in any one of these threads? This thread is just following a familiar pattern: **Pjen** makes some bullshit claim, somebody disagrees, **Pjen** calls them a colonialist and their point a straw man. Any sort of debate on this subject is futile under these conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/323 "2014-12-12T09:20:50Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > But Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians and South Africans did not lose their citizenship on independence (remeber Zola Budd.) How do you explain that? Back then, the concepts of nationality were different - and the point at which they became ‘independent’ differs depending on your definition, too. Nevertheless, at some point, one of those countries started the ball rolling by passing an Act denying their own citizens citizenship, and barring Brits from sharing their own citizenship. I believe it was Canada, 1947. So do you think they got in trouble for doing so? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/324 "2014-12-12T09:30:04Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Can you quote where people who already had been granted residence to stay in the UK as British citizens with full rights later bad that right removed? In the case of Australia, Canada, and New Zealand, people with right to entry ( British born or initially having a British grandparent gave a right to residence. This has gradually diminished as fewer and fear such people had a British grandparent. For a long time now, British citizenship and its precedessor, CUKC status, have been disconnected from the right of abode in Britain. Lots of people lost CUKC status when Jamaica (say) became independent, but didn’t lost right of abode _because they had already lost it_. The right of a CUKC citizen to enter and live in the UK was already dependent on “patriality” (briefly, having a parent or grandparent born in the UK, or having been born there yourself) and that continued to the case for Jamaican citizens. So, on Jamaican independence, those who didn’t have patriality had no right of abode to lose, while those who had patriality didn’t immediately lose their right of abode. > [@Pjen](#): > > I have a friend who has one British parent but other was Australian born. She received a Full British Passport with full rights because her birth was registered with the High Commission. She married a Scot later and her children were born in England. The children have British and Australian passports and their children will have rights to live in both Australia and the UK. Yes. But the children’s right live in the UK is guaranteed by the fact that they were born in England and England will (presumably) remain in the UK no matter what happens to Scotland. Consider slightly different facts: the children are born in Scotland. If past precedents are followed, on hypothetical Scottish independence they will become Scottish citizens. Will they remain British Citizens? Not by virtue of their birth in Scotland, but in their particular case probably, yes, by virtue of having a parent (their mother) who is a British citizen who was not herself born in Scotland. But the Scottish-born child of two Scottish-born parents would not retain British citizenship, if past precedents are followed. Would Scottish citizens who are not British citizens have a right of abode in the UK? Highly likely that they would, either because Scotland would be an EU country or because the UK and Ireland would extent the Common Travel Area or (probably) both. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/325 "2014-12-12T09:41:00Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You do not understand the concept of Straw Man even after quoting it. One person does not understand or does deliberately misuse the concept, that is true. I am certain most persons reading this discussion will not agree with one of the two people. > [@Pjen](#): > > But Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians and South Africans did not lose their citizenship on independence (remeber Zola Budd.) How do you explain that? It is already discussed, and is a\*\* choice\*\* of the UK, there is no obligation at all although you are trying to invent one by misusing facts either deliberately or through lack of understanding. > [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > What is the point of this thread? Has **Pjen** ever conceded that she is wrong on a point of law, the politics or economics of a situation, etc. in any one of these threads? This thread is just following a familiar pattern: **Pjen** makes some bullshit claim, somebody disagrees, **Pjen** calls them a colonialist and their point a straw man. > > Any sort of debate on this subject is futile under these conditions. yes, I think this is the case. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/326 "2014-12-12T10:07:17Z")
My point is not that citizenship must be automatically retained, but that politically and legally it would be too difficult to determine who had British Citizenship after Scottish Independence. I can see no clear decision procedure that would result in a fair and legal dispensation. England will have over a million Scots with the right to Scottish citizenship. Some of those will be permanent residents and others will be temporary to some extent. Scotland will have over half a million English with rights to Scottish citizenship, solely because of there residence on independence day. Some of those will be permanent residents and others will be temporary to some extent. Some of those will take up Scottish Citizenship and others will not. Some will want to remain British, others will want both. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/327 "2014-12-12T10:15:43Z")
Haha, you have the gall to talk of _fair_ when Salmond spent the entire referendum harping on about fucking off with all the oil, threatening to undercut our business taxes and attract business from the UK to Scotland, and sticking the English working man with debt that’s paid for Scottish hospitals and roads? There will be no _fair_, Pjen. Salmond’s rhetoric has sunk any chance of a _fair_ separation for at least a generation. The “English Cancer” tends to have a long memory for stuff like that. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/328 "2014-12-12T10:18:02Z")
My point is not that citizenship must be automatically retained, but that politically and legally it would be too difficult to determine who had British Citizenship after Scottish Independence. I can see no clear decision procedure that would result in a fair and legal dispensation. England will have over a million Scots with the right to Scottish citizenship. Some of those will be permanent residents and others will be temporary to some extent. Scotland will have over half a million English with rights to Scottish citizenship, solely because of there residence on independence day. Some of those will be permanent residents and others will be temporary to some extent. Some of those will take up Scottish Citizenship and others will not. Some will want to remain British, others will want both. All of them will have a right to European Citizenship because of their British Passports and this remains no matter what Parliament does. All of them will be protected by the Treaty obligations on stateless persons. The decision procedure would be even more complex than the current Immigration Tribunals. Politically and legally, removing British citizenship from people against their will would be virtually impossible because of the legal and political ramifications. Examples: Sean Connery would be British and Scottish as would Billy Connolly. Chris Hoy would be Scottish, but Andy Murray would be British and Scottish. All Scottish MPs would be British and Scottish, but not all MSPs who would be Scottish alone unless they had a residence or relationship claim to British nationality. People like me of English descent would be in a very strange position- denied British Citizenship because of residence on independence day, yet eligible for registration as a British Citizen by birth and parentage. There is no way out of such a muddle save a form of shard/joint citizenship extinguishing through the generations. And as I noted above, even the Better Together campaign never suggested loss of citizenship as a negative to independence despite all the other scare tactics they used. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/329 "2014-12-12T10:20:22Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Haha, you have the gall to talk of _fair_ when Salmond spent the entire referendum harping on about fucking off with all the oil, threatening to undercut our business taxes and attract business from the UK to Scotland, and sticking the English working man with debt that’s paid for Scottish hospitals and roads? > > There will be no _fair_, Pjen. Salmond’s rhetoric has sunk any chance of a _fair_ separation for at least a generation. The “English Cancer” tends to have a long memory for stuff like that. In your humble opinion. A week is a long time in politics. When push comes to shove people negotiate and agree. This whole argument is driven by the negativity and hostility that you demonstrate. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/330 "2014-12-12T10:25:06Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > It is already discussed, and is a\*\* choice\*\* of the UK, there is no obligation at all although you are trying to invent one by misusing facts either deliberately or through lack of understanding. How would you account for the anomaly created by removing citizenship from my family- all English born. Even if this happened we would be eligible for British Citizenship again by birth and parentage. Why should residence in Scotland affect us differently from residence in, say, France on the same date? No rational answer. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/331 "2014-12-12T10:27:42Z")
**Pjen** - for all your rhetoric, you’ve still not answered the basic question of exactly _why_ you want Scottish independence, and yet still want to retain British citizenship, currency, membership of international organisation through the UK, control over certain British military bases, full use of British oil, and many other things. What, in your mind, does “independence” actually entail, when you want Scots and Scotland to be so continually dependant on their larger neighbour? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/332 "2014-12-12T10:31:28Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > How would you account for the anomaly created by removing citizenship from my family- all English born. Even if this happened we would be eligible for British Citizenship again by birth and parentage. > > Why should residence in Scotland affect us differently from residence in, say, France on the same date? > > No rational answer. It’s politics, there’s no need for a rational answer. A lesson well learned from the SNP and the independence campaign. The UK would have a perfect legal right to strip citizenship from anyone who became Scottish upon independence, regardless of parentage or birth. That it’s hugely unlikely that they will isn’t relevant to the theoretical decision. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/333 "2014-12-12T10:39:27Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > How would you account for the anomaly created by removing citizenship from my family- all English born. Even if this happened we would be eligible for British Citizenship again by birth and parentage. This is what is in fact the straw man. > [@](#): > > Why should residence in Scotland affect us differently from residence in, say, France on the same date? This has already been covered in this thread many times. It is simply the typical practice that the legal residents of a territory are required in the seperation to choose a citizenship. What makes this a choice is the fact of the seperation, which should not be the hard concept to understand unless one is trying to confuse the issue deliberately. If the UK decided it wished to allow the residents of the new Scottish sovereign to retain the UK citizenship along with a Scottish citizenship, this is a choice of the UK, but the precedents all are perfectly supportive of the UK requiring the legal residents to choose. Whatever the assertion of political difficulty in this, there is no case of seperation where this was politically difficult. Although you now are pretending to have never said so, there is no question of any international law because no person is being left with out a citizenship in their resident territory. > [@](#): > > No rational answer. There are many rational answers, but not to the straw man you pose but this is not accidental it would appear. It is hard to say this is an honest presentation, although whether that is deliberate or from a lack of an ability to understand it is not clear. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/334 "2014-12-12T10:47:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > **Pjen** - for all your rhetoric, you’ve still not answered the basic question of exactly _why_ you want Scottish independence, and yet still want to retain British citizenship, currency, membership of international organisation through the UK, control over certain British military bases, full use of British oil, and many other things. > > What, in your mind, does “independence” actually entail, when you want Scots and Scotland to be so continually dependant on their larger neighbour? I support those peel who want independence. This is called democracy. Independence may or may not happen. Despite that I may wish to return to the land of my birth without hindrance once my boys are through university- I would quite like to experience a warm summer in my later years. An accident of residence is not going to stop that. You are engaging in Straw Man again. I do not want permanent use of Sterling, merely a transition period. British citizenship is a right of birth and descent, ownership of the oil is decided by international treaty obligations (again, no one from better together ever suggested it was other than Scottish Oil should independence occur). Scotland has contributed about ten percent of national expenditure on what is nominally British and hence is heir to its share of armed forces and other joint assets. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/335 "2014-12-12T10:49:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s politics, there’s no need for a rational answer. A lesson well learned from the SNP and the independence campaign. > > The UK would have a perfect legal right to strip citizenship from anyone who became Scottish upon independence, regardless of parentage or birth. That it’s hugely unlikely that they will isn’t relevant to the theoretical decision. But those people would still have the right to citizenship by birth and parentage if applicable. This is applicable to all but particularly applicable to people born in England or with English parents. You keep on missing that point. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/336 "2014-12-12T10:57:06Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > This is what is in fact the straw man. > > This has already been covered in this thread many times. It is simply the typical practice that the legal residents of a territory are required in the seperation to choose a citizenship. It is not a straw man. People are clearly saying that it would be possible legally and morally to strip me of my citizenship because I was resident in Scotland at independence. I would agree that should someone apply for another citizenship, then a country could legally make you choose one or another, but that would not be the case here. Being resident in Scotland would give you the right to take up Scottish citizenship, but that could easily be declined. To enforce this it would be necessary to change the law to deny British citizenship to anyone with a foreign passport, or make a special exception merely to deny joint Scottish/British citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/337 "2014-12-12T10:58:21Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I support those peel who want independence. This is called democracy. At the risk of sustaining further cranial impact injuries, you do understand that most people in Scotland don’t want independence, and said so in a very democratic way quite recently? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/338 "2014-12-12T10:59:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s politics, there’s no need for a rational answer. A lesson well learned from the SNP and the independence campaign. > > The UK would have a perfect legal right to strip citizenship from anyone who became Scottish upon independence, regardless of parentage or birth. That it’s hugely unlikely that they will isn’t relevant to the theoretical decision. OK. Scotland becomes independent. I choose not to exercise my right to a Scottish passport. Should I lose my British citizenship gained by English birth and English descent. I don’t expect a straight answer to this question for obvious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/339 "2014-12-12T11:02:13Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > At the risk of sustaining further cranial impact injuries, you do understand that most people in Scotland don’t want independence, and said so in a very democratic way quite recently? As I have said I accept that in 2014 there was no majority. I also accept that in 2010 there was no majority for the Labour party to form a coalition, but five years later there may be. People change their minds over time. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/340 "2014-12-12T11:14:51Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It is not a straw man. People are clearly saying that it would be possible legally and morally to strip me of my citizenship because I was resident in Scotland at independence. No it is, as the replies to you are about the opting for another citizne > [@Pjen](#): > > OK. Scotland becomes independent. I choose not to exercise my right to a Scottish passport. Should I lose my British citizenship gained by English birth and English descent. > > I don’t expect a straight answer to this question for obvious reasons. There is a straight answer it is and has been clear for many pages, if you stayed as UK citizen without another citizenship, then you retain it. This has been clear for many responses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026.md?page=18)