# Where does the Scottish Everendum stand? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026 "2014-12-01T12:53:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/381 "2014-12-12T16:17:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Kindly address the subject. Which subject? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/382 "2014-12-12T16:22:46Z")
The analysis and figures, Pjen. Do they exist or not? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/383 "2014-12-12T16:32:30Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > London and Scotland are the two areas in credit over their current account. All other regions spend more money than their earnings. The regions shouldn’t have separate accounts for national government spending and, if we were to spread oil revenue out over the whole of the UK _like we should be doing_ Scotland would be massively in debt. As opposed to slightly in debt, as it is under the current unfair system. It shouldn’t be acceptable that Scotland spends so much more of the UK’s money per head than any other part, and I’m surprised that the rest of the UK continues to allow it. Of course, with Scotland being so overrepresented in various parliaments, it’s not that shocking. Assuming Scotland does get independence, how long do you think it will take until you’re begging to come back? No currency, no membership of international organisations, no foreign relations to speak of, and if your theory that Scotland won’t pay it’s share of the national debt, no ability to borrow money will make you, at best, the next Greece. But without the international support. Oh, I forgot, you don’t actually want to be independent, you just want to be able to make some independent choices without dealing with the consequences, and keep everything else tied up with the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/384 "2014-12-12T16:33:45Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > The analysis and figures, Pjen. Do they exist or not? They do exist. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/385 "2014-12-12T16:34:02Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Which subject? The responsibilities of a citizen of a democracy. Now cut the shit. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/386 "2014-12-12T16:35:38Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > They do exist. No they don’t. [/ **Dio**] ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/387 "2014-12-12T16:38:11Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The responsibilities of a citizen of a democracy. Now cut the shit. The responsibility is to advocate for their beliefs at all times. The last referendum was lost, the next one may be won. Such is democracy. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/388 "2014-12-12T16:40:24Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You ignore Treaty obligations. If Scotland was not part of the EU as a newly independent country, the rUK would not be able to strip individuals of their European Citizenship by removing their British citizenship as this was agreed in an EU treaty and upheld by the European Court. The UK gave up its right to do this and made itself open to action in the European Court. It can only ignore this by reneging on the Treaty which would have major ramifications for rUK. Additionally any person or group so affected could sue through the European Court for reinstatement of their citizenship. Are we absolutely sure about this, as it isn’t true for some other EU countries? Take, for example, Austria, which is also an EU state. [http://www.bmeia.gv.at/en/embassy/consulate-general-new-york/practical-advice/austrian-citizenship.html](http://www.bmeia.gv.at/en/embassy/consulate-general-new-york/practical-advice/austrian-citizenship.html) > [@](#): > > II) Losing Austrian citizenship > > 1. Acquiring foreign citizenship: > An Austrian citizen applying for foreign citizenship will automatically lose his/her Austrian citizenship upon obtaining foreign citizenship. Minor children born in wedlock usually also lose their Austrian citizenship (because of their parents’ losing theirs). So it looks like this isn’t without precedent. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/389 "2014-12-12T16:41:23Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The responsibility is to advocate for their beliefs at all times. The last referendum was lost, the next one may be won. Such is democracy. They also have a responsibility to abide by the wishes of the majority. That wish, clearly expressed, is to remain within the union. Why do you not respect the views of the majority of your adopted countrymen? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/390 "2014-12-12T16:41:53Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Schoolboy error there. > > … > > Simple enough for you? Spare me. I’m just trying to provide what figures I can find. If you have ones that support the point you’re trying to make, kindly share them ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/391 "2014-12-12T16:42:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The regions shouldn’t have separate accounts for national government spending and, if we were to spread oil revenue out over the whole of the UK _like we should be doing_ Scotland would be massively in debt. As opposed to slightly in debt, as it is under the current unfair system. > > It shouldn’t be acceptable that Scotland spends so much more of the UK’s money per head than any other part, and I’m surprised that the rest of the UK continues to allow it. Of course, with Scotland being so overrepresented in various parliaments, it’s not that shocking. > > Assuming Scotland does get independence, how long do you think it will take until you’re begging to come back? No currency, no membership of international organisations, no foreign relations to speak of, and if your theory that Scotland won’t pay it’s share of the national debt, no ability to borrow money will make you, at best, the next Greece. But without the international support. > > Oh, I forgot, you don’t actually want to be independent, you just want to be able to make some independent choices without dealing with the consequences, and keep everything else tied up with the UK. Scotland sees itself as more than a region having a separate legal system and distinctive education system together with its own national culture. It is a moot point whether Scotland contributes more or less than it should. An independent Scotland will not be as you describe- that is mere crazy angry unionist propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/392 "2014-12-12T16:42:51Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > They do exist. OK, where are they? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/393 "2014-12-12T16:47:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > They also have a responsibility to abide by the wishes of the majority. That wish, clearly expressed, is to remain within the union. > > Why do you not respect the views of the majority of your adopted countrymen? There is no guarantee that public opinion may change (may have already claimed.) NO-one expects general elections to be a permanent decision. We are actively preparing for the next referendum as is our right on a democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/394 "2014-12-12T16:47:53Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Scotland sees itself as more than a region having a separate legal system and distinctive education system together with its own national culture. > > It is a moot point whether Scotland contributes more or less than it should. It is very much not a moot point, it’s something all Scots who want independence need to acknowledge and deal with. > [@](#): > > An independent Scotland will not be as you describe- that is mere crazy angry unionist propaganda. I’ve seen no evidence that any Scottish authorities or parties have any credible plans to prevent that from happening, other than relying on the UK’s generosity, and that of the international community. Which, to be fair, you may well get - as long whoever’s doing the negotiating realises that they will have to concede plenty to get more in return, and not someone like you, who expects to take, take, take. If it were just Unionist propaganda, you would be easily able to rebut all of it, but instead you rely on claims that figures exist that no-one’s actually seen, and on misinterpreting and misapplying international law. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/395 "2014-12-12T16:48:06Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > OK, where are they? In the public domain. I have lost interest in that part of the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/396 "2014-12-12T16:48:54Z")
But I haven’t. If they are in the public domain they should be easy to identify and link to. Links please. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/397 "2014-12-12T16:49:53Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > There is no guarantee that public opinion may change (may have already claimed.) NO-one expects general elections to be a permanent decision. We are actively preparing for the next referendum as is our right on a democracy. General elections are for a fixed term. Referenda are for the foreseeable future. There is no need for another referendum until circumstances change significantly. Say the opposite happened. Say there had been a win for the Yes vote, but then an alleged swing back to Unionism. Would you be strongly advocating another referendum in that case? If not, then your claim to be a democrat is false, and you are a hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/398 "2014-12-12T16:50:55Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > In the public domain. I have lost interest in that part of the debate. You have lost interest because you have been shown to be completely wrong. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/399 "2014-12-12T17:04:31Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The responsibility is to advocate for their beliefs at all times. That is part of the responsibility of a citizen. There’s more to it, though, of which you show no awareness. The “crazy, angry propaganda” you purport to deplore is, let’s say, not limited to the unionists, is it? Not by a long shot. You’ve provided little else, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/400 "2014-12-12T17:06:46Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > But I haven’t. If they are in the public domain they should be easy to identify and link to. Links please. If you are so interested, you should fond google to be of use. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026.md?page=21)