# Where does the Scottish Everendum stand? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026 "2014-12-01T12:53:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/441 "2014-12-13T15:02:58Z")
> [@Arch\_Trout](#): > > When I’m in different parts of Scotland it doesn’t feel foreign, maybe that’s peculiar to me. I do have friends that say when they are in the western isles they feel like they are in a foreign country though. Hell, Glasgow and Edinburgh are only about 50 miles apart, and they are very different in character. The yin and yang of Scotland, one influenced by England, and the other by Ireland. (Well, that’s my theory anyway 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/442 "2014-12-13T15:13:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s very easy to be happy with a Government that is gladly spending other people’s money, and doesn’t have to make any hard decisions, but can blame them all on Westminster. > > As for a Labour coalition, that’s possible. The two realistic options at the moment are Lab/SNP or Con/UKIP, both of which would be disastrous. If either looks like it will happen, I’d hope that a Con/Lab government would happen, so as to shut the nationalists of any stripe out of government, even if that did put on hold the referendum on EU membership. A Grand Coalition would be possible but unlikely unless neither party can form a government after weeks and the markets look like tanking. It is quite likely that on current predictions Labour will be able to arrange confidence and supply with Lib Dem, Green, SNP and DUP support. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/443 "2014-12-13T15:19:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s very easy to be happy with a Government that is gladly spending other people’s money, and doesn’t have to make any hard decisions, but can blame them all on Westminster. It is a moot point whether Scotland is a debtor or creditor in UK finances. Different analyses give different results depending on various assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/444 "2014-12-13T15:21:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I very slightly lean towards Out, but actually want to be convinced to stay in. But that would involve some sort of explanation of why the UK is a massive net contributor to the EU, but treated like a second class citizen by some of the other major countries. > > For the same reason UKIP in government would be disastrous, it would divert attention from real politics to less important nationalist issues. Not entirely unimportant, of course, but a government with the SNP ignoring the results of the referendum and pushing for independence (like our own **pjen** ) would be terrible. > > I don’t want a Labour government, and I think it would be a massive step backwards for the UK to elect one now, but a majority elected one at least I could respect. A minority nationalist party - _especially_ one representing only a tiny part of the UK - holding the strings of power would be fundamentally undemocratic, and both the SNP and UKIP want to damage the UK. I’d rather not have the EU referendum than see outright racists in power. > > I’m assuming the Lib Dems and the Greens aren’t going to play a major part in the next election, but for me either of them would be preferable to the nationalists. > > Oh, and most people I think would consider the Republic of Ireland a foreign country - the practical need for a passport to enter from the mainland UK, and the necessity of changing currency, would make it seem so. This may be an area where legal technicalities and popular perception don’t mesh. Do you need a passport to enter the Republic from the UK? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/445 "2014-12-13T15:25:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s always possible I will be proved wrong. Certainly more likely that I’ll be proved wrong by the SNP than UKIP. > > Your banknotes _should_ be accepted here, and I’ve had more than one argument with people who won’t take them before. > > I’d also say that in my opinion, England and Ireland are more different than Scotland and Ireland, or at least that they appear that way to me. No shopkeeper in England is required to accept Scottish notes. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/446 "2014-12-13T15:33:26Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Do you need a passport to enter the Republic from the UK? The rule is that you can travel from the UK to the ROI without a passport if you’re a UK or EU citizen. Of course, the easiest way to prove that is with a passport. In practice, you will need one when flying, won’t when driving from NI, and sometimes do when going by ferry. In short, legally no but practically often yes. Which is also the answer, IMO, to “Is Ireland foreign”. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/447 "2014-12-13T15:36:37Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > No shopkeeper in England is required to accept Scottish notes. Huh, I’ve just checked and you’re right. However, Scottish notes have exactly the same legal status as Bank Of England ones, and shops aren’t obliged to accept them either… Which is strange. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/448 "2014-12-13T15:52:08Z")
I am surprised at the assertion that the two countries, Scotland and England are not very different. As a relatively recent immigrant I would list the following: Different licensing hours for in and off sales. Different shopping hours (we have true 24 hour shopping) Different school and exam system Different University system. Different NHS system Universal NHS dental care No water rates or private providers Different bank notes Different bank holidays Different drink drive laws Different Jury trials Different Criminal Law No PACE for police No local police forces Different civil law Different land law and house sales organisation. No Whole Life tariffs Different mental health law PR in local elections Different competency law Different child care law Different age of criminal responsibility No private land reserved for hunting or private use No law against rough camping or roadside caravan overnights Scottish editions of all major papers- the Daily Mail is almost readable. Separate National Trust St Andrews rather than St John’s ambulance Saltire flying everywhere and few union flags. Tatty scones, clouty dumpling and other foodstuffs Burns Night Different Football, Rugby, Cricket and other national teams Many people speak a non-English language where a North British dialect becomes a completely different language- especially with older people. Scottish TV, BBC and ITV have many Scotland only programmes. Newsnight is delayed to give a Scottish news and comment programme. Apart from that they are identical ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/449 "2014-12-13T15:53:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The rule is that you can travel from the UK to the ROI without a passport if you’re a UK or EU citizen. Of course, the easiest way to prove that is with a passport. In practice, you will need one when flying, won’t when driving from NI, and sometimes do when going by ferry. > > In short, legally no but practically often yes. Which is also the answer, IMO, to “Is Ireland foreign”. A driving licence is adequate at all times as is a personal identity card if you apply for one. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/450 "2014-12-13T15:59:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Huh, I’ve just checked and you’re right. However, Scottish notes have exactly the same legal status as Bank Of England ones, and shops aren’t obliged to accept them either… Which is strange. A further difference is that only pound denominated coins are legal tender in Scotland and Bank of England notes, pound denominated coins and limited amounts of other coin are legal tender in England. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/451 "2014-12-13T16:01:20Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Hell, Glasgow and Edinburgh are only about 50 miles apart, and they are very different in character. The yin and yang of Scotland, one influenced by England, and the other by Ireland. (Well, that’s my theory anyway 🙂 ) They are different in character, but so are Yorkshire and Lancashire, or indeed Liverpool and Manchester. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/452 "2014-12-13T16:15:25Z")
Different Sales of Goods law Different Small claims court rules Different laws on debt and bankruptcy Different census questions and organisation Different registration of births deaths and marriages Different age of majority Different jury composition Not Proven verdicts Different anti-sectarian laws Curling is a sport not a hair style Gaelic sports State provided personal care for the disabled and elderly Free prescriptions Free eye tests Different term lengths and school holidays No school governors No OFSTED No care commission No magistrates courts Supreme court has very limited competence in Scottish criminal law Golf courses everywhere Charge for plastic bags Different rules on smoking in buildings No clamping Let me think a little more… ---
**Author:** ![Arch\_Trout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@Arch\_Trout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arch_Trout)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/453 "2014-12-13T17:24:03Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Hell, Glasgow and Edinburgh are only about 50 miles apart, and they are very different in character. The yin and yang of Scotland, one influenced by England, and the other by Ireland. (Well, that’s my theory anyway 🙂 ) I often kid my wife that she’s essentially English given the character of the middle classes of Edinburgh. You’re right Glasgow and Edinburgh feel different but still Scottish as I can get a morning roll with lorne sausage in either. Can’t do that in London 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/454 "2014-12-13T17:30:50Z")
> [@Arch\_Trout](#): > > I often kid my wife that she’s essentially English given the character of the middle classes of Edinburgh. > > You’re right Glasgow and Edinburgh feel different but still Scottish as I can get a morning roll with lorne sausage in either. Can’t do that in London 🙂 Nah. What you need is a Haggis, Tattie Scone and egg roll washed down with Irn Bru- that is the real test. ---
**Author:** ![Arch\_Trout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@Arch\_Trout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arch_Trout)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/455 "2014-12-13T17:31:32Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It is a moot point whether Scotland is a debtor or creditor in UK finances. Different analyses give different results depending on various assumptions. And there’s always the presumption that should Scotland be independent we would spend exactly the same amount of money on exactly the same things. Which is obviously not what would happen. People also casually ignore the fact that many people that voted Yes (including myself) suspected that in an independent Scotland their taxes would go up to help achieve the social policies that they would like to see and balance the books - and still voted Yes. An absolute anathema to Tory voters. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/456 "2014-12-13T17:31:54Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Let me think a little more… Please don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Arch\_Trout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@Arch\_Trout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arch_Trout)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/457 "2014-12-13T17:33:12Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Nah. What you need is a Haggis, Tattie Scone and egg roll washed down with Irn Bru- that is the real test. Getting a proper morning roll in England is test enough. Especially a well fired one. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/458 "2014-12-13T17:56:06Z")
> [@Arch\_Trout](#): > > And there’s always the presumption that should Scotland be independent we would spend exactly the same amount of money on exactly the same things. > Which is obviously not what would happen. > > People also casually ignore the fact that many people that voted Yes (including myself) suspected that in an independent Scotland their taxes would go up to help achieve the social policies that they would like to see and balance the books - and still voted Yes. > > An absolute anathema to Tory voters. Agree totally. The people who should be hit for more taxes are not the super rich who export liabilities and anyway already usually pay considerable income tax if resident, or the poor and disabled, but people like my family who are comfortable and have excess funds for foreign holidays, and other luxuries. This is not possible in ENgland as the two major parties are in a race to the bottom and want to retain the middle class vote. Some of us are more than willing to pay tax at a higher rate- say 5% extra for each extra £7500 of income- 0% below £10000, 10% below £22500, 25% below £30000, 30% below £37500, 35% below £45000, 40% above £45000 and NI to be paid on all wages above £45000. Might work in Scotland but never in England. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/459 "2014-12-13T17:58:02Z")
> [@Arch\_Trout](#): > > Getting a proper morning roll in England is test enough. > Especially a well fired one. Dark brown to black dome like St Pauls in shape which breaks when you bite into it revealing soft light bread below! ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/460 "2014-12-13T17:59:38Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I am surprised at the assertion that the two countries, Scotland and England are not very different. As a relatively recent immigrant I would list the following: As near as I can tell nobody actually claimed Scotland and England were identical. For one so hot on calling others out on constructing straw-men, you build a fair few yourself. The claim was that Scotland didn’t feel “foreign” to the English, which it does not. The differences between the two countries you’re enumerating are minor compared to the differences between American states, yet there’s no mistaking that Montana and Texas are the same country and don’t feel foreign to fellow Americans in the same way that France and Mongolia do. Incidentally, if you’re really listing the lack of PACE, different names for St. John’s Ambulance, and differences in anti-sectarian laws as counting towards being “foreign” then you may wish to recalibrate your foreignometer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026.md?page=24)