# Where does the Scottish Everendum stand? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026 "2014-12-01T12:53:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/461 "2014-12-13T17:59:54Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Please don’t. I think that the two lists overturn the thesis that the two countries are incredibly similar. I suspect that the difference between Ireland and England and Ireland and Scotland is quite similar. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/462 "2014-12-13T18:07:18Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > As near as I can tell nobody actually claimed Scotland and England were identical. The claim was that Scotland didn’t feel “foreign” to the English, which it does not. The differences between the two countries you’re enumerating are minor compared to the differences between American states, yet there’s no mistaking that Montana and Texas are the same country and don’t feel foreign to fellow Americans in the same way that France and Mongolia do. > > Incidentally, if you’re really listing the lack of PACE and differences in anti-sectarian laws as counting towards being “foreign” then you may wish to recalibrate your foreign-meter. It feels foreign to me even after more than a decade- and I have lived permanently in the USA so can compare differences well. I once employed a young Scottish nurse in Oxford. It took some months before he overcame the culture shock- he was very broad and very macho Scottiah and found the transition incredibly different. Several times a day I find myself recognising major differences beyween the two countries. From experience American States are identifiably American in a way that Scotland and England do not share an identifiable Britishness, but one seriously modified in each country. Additionally it is very easy to move between states so far as culture is concerned and legally as so many State laws are based on particular historic pro formas. I regularly travel to California and Florida and there is relatively little difference between the Culture and Legal System- much less than between say, the USA and Canada which are two countries with a similar accent and dissimilar culture and legal condition Within five years I suspect that the difference between Scotland and England will be similar to the difference between the USA and Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/463 "2014-12-13T18:11:02Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > As near as I can tell nobody actually claimed Scotland and England were identical. For one so hot on calling others out on constructing straw-men, you build a fair few yourself. The claim was that Scotland didn’t feel “foreign” to the English, which it does not. The differences between the two countries you’re enumerating are minor compared to the differences between American states, yet there’s no mistaking that Montana and Texas are the same country and don’t feel foreign to fellow Americans in the same way that France and Mongolia do. > > Incidentally, if you’re really listing the lack of PACE, different names for St. John’s Ambulance, and differences in anti-sectarian laws as counting towards being “foreign” then you may wish to recalibrate your foreignometer. PACE and Scottish police rules are incredibly different and make a major difference to the interface between the state and the suspect. Until recently police here were allowed to question suspects without a lawyer for six hours! When I travel to the States I note that it is the SPCA and not the RSPCA similar to St Johns and St Andrews, and I am aware the the UK recognises Hate Crime whereas the USA does not, similar to differences in anti-sectarian legislation. You do not comment on the rest of the items in a voluminous list. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/464 "2014-12-13T18:11:07Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It feels foreign to me even after more than a decade- and I have lived permanently in the USA so can compare differences well. Good for you. As I said earlier, I lived for nearly ten years in Scotland and never once felt the place to be “foreign”. On the other hand, I lived for two years in Italy and there was a substantial culture shock that was never present when moving north of the border. Incidentally, I’m still waiting on the link to that analysis that you claimed existed yesterday or some admission that you made the entire thing up with a concordant apology. > [@Pjen](#): > > You do not comment on the rest of the items in a voluminous list. Probably because the majority of them are either trivial or actually undermine your own point. Both Scotland and England have a National Trust and St. John’s or St. Andrew’s Ambulance. Somehow you picked up on the names being different as evidence of the two country’s gaping differences without noticing that the main lesson is that both countries have a National Trust whereas the likes of Italy and France do not. They only serve to show how similar the two countries are, not how different. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/465 "2014-12-13T18:14:27Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > As near as I can tell nobody actually claimed Scotland and England were identical. Your exact words were: “Scotland does not feel in any way foreign to me, and never has.” ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/466 "2014-12-13T18:16:16Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Incidentally, I’m still waiting on the link to that analysis that you claimed existed yesterday or some admission that you made the entire thing up with a concordant apology. As you are well aware there are several analyses in the public domain that differ in their assessments. Some suggest that Scotland is a debtor and others that it is a creditor. You can google them yourself. The analyses were well referenced during the campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/467 "2014-12-13T18:17:03Z")
Yes, and it does not. Not being “foreign” is not the same as being identical. Yorkshire is different to Lancashire yet the two are not “foreign” to each other in the sense being used in this thread. You seem to have missed the link to the analysis you claimed existed or an apology for trying to intentionally mislead posters in this thread, incidentally. If they’re so easy to Google, you should have been able to find one in the 24 hours since you claimed they existed. The fact that you haven’t speaks volumes. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/468 "2014-12-13T18:21:02Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Good for you. As I said earlier, I lived for nearly ten years in Scotland and never once felt the place to be “foreign”. On the other hand, I lived for two years in Italy and there was a substantial culture shock that was never present when moving north of the border. > > Incidentally, I’m still waiting on the link to that analysis that you claimed existed yesterday or some admission that you made the entire thing up with a concordant apology. > > Probably because the majority of them are either trivial or actually undermine your own point. Both Scotland and England have a National Trust and St. John’s or St. Andrew’s Ambulance. Somehow you picked up on the names being different as evidence of the two country’s gaping differences without noticing that the main lesson is that both countries have a National Trust whereas the likes of Italy and France do not. They only serve to show how similar the two countries are, not how different. In what way are The education system at school and University level being totally different No University fees No NHS reorganisation for years Proportional Representation for Local Councils Clamping on Private Land Free prescription Free Eye Tests Different system of Criminal and Civil Law Bedroom tax averted Different national sports teams Different sports leagues and Burns Night “Trivial” ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/469 "2014-12-13T18:22:42Z")
No more replies from me on this subject until you either admit you pulled these “analyses” you claim exist out of your arse of you produce a link to one. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/470 "2014-12-13T18:23:23Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Yes, and it does not. Not being “foreign” is not the same as being identical. Yorkshire is different to Lancashire yet the two are not “foreign” to each other in the sense being used in this thread. > > You seem to have missed the link to the analysis you claimed existed or an apology for trying to intentionally mislead posters in this thread, incidentally. If they’re so easy to Google, you should have been able to find one in the 24 hours since you claimed they existed. The fact that you haven’t speaks volumes. To you. I do have it but you have a chain to pull. I made a comment in passing about a well known analysis (among other supporting and differing analyses) that said that Scotland was a creditor nation over the past thirty years. I also admit that Your milage may vary- other opinions are available and have stated that the exact balance is a moot point. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/471 "2014-12-13T18:25:22Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > No more replies from me on this subject until you either admit you pulled these “analyses” you claim exist out of your arse of you produce a link to one. Excellent. IIRC I have previously been warned for saying to an adversary that I was putting him on ignore (it was Steophan in fact!). I think the rules are that you are allowed to ignore someone in silence, but not goad them with that information. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/472 "2014-12-13T18:26:23Z")
Either admit you pulled these “analyses” you claim exist out of your arse or produce a link to one. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/473 "2014-12-13T18:29:19Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Good for you. As I said earlier, I lived for nearly ten years in Scotland and never once felt the place to be “foreign”. _mutters something about how Edinburgh might as well be a city in Berkshire 😉_ ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/474 "2014-12-13T18:35:00Z")
Not posh enough for Berkshire, I don’t think 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/475 "2014-12-13T18:37:36Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Not posh enough for Berkshire, I don’t think 😛 Morningside versus Windsor? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/476 "2014-12-13T18:38:39Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Either admit you pulled these “analyses” you claim exist out of your arse or produce a link to one. I thought you were ignoring me! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/477 "2014-12-13T18:39:44Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Not posh enough for Berkshire, I don’t think 😛 I had a friend in Dorney (between Eton and Windsor.) We used to address all his mail to Dorney, South Slough, Berkshire. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/478 "2014-12-13T19:17:07Z")
> [@Arch\_Trout](#): > > Good for you, my friends that live in England feel like they are in a foreign country. > That’s not a slight, people hear foreign and think ‘bad’ but it’s not that - it just feels sufficiently different to feel like you are in a different country (which you are). > > When I’m in different parts of Scotland it doesn’t feel foreign, maybe that’s peculiar to me. I do have friends that say when they are in the western isles they feel like they are in a foreign country though. And people in the South of England probably have similar feelings about the North. All countries have regions that feel a bit different. Here in Sweden the South (Skåne) is very different to the Stockholm region which is very different again to the North (Norrland). I’ve been to Scotland more times that I can shake a stick at and never once has it felt like a foreign country. Even when coming across anti-English sentiment (which is unfortunately common) it felt like North vs South in England. Frankly I think it says more about your friends. ---
**Author:** ![Arch\_Trout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@Arch\_Trout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arch_Trout)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/479 "2014-12-13T21:53:21Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > And people in the South of England probably have similar feelings about the North. > > All countries have regions that feel a bit different. Here in Sweden the South (Skåne) is very different to the Stockholm region which is very different again to the North (Norrland). > > I’ve been to Scotland more times that I can shake a stick at and never once has it felt like a foreign country. Even when coming across anti-English sentiment (which is unfortunately common) it felt like North vs South in England. > > Frankly I think it says more about your friends. Interesting, I’ve never came across any actual anti-English sentiment outside of the sporting banter. Not one of my English colleagues has ever mentioned being subjected to any anti-English sentiment either. So I guess our anecdotal evidence cancels each other out. So you’re in (from?) Sweden and Scotland doesn’t feel like a foreign country to you? I thought that kind of sentiment only ever existed during a Ryder Cup. Bravo on not seeing any nation as anything other than a different geographical part of mankind’s dominion. Why should I or any of my friends not feel like England is a foreign country given everything that is different? I’m not using foreign in a pejorative sense but that’s how you seem to be taking it. Having to pay for a prescription while on holiday in England makes me feel like I’m in a foreign country as much as paying for a peage in France makes me feel like I’m in a foreign country or not knowing what an item of clothing actually costs in a department store in America without doing some mental arithmetic makes me feel like I’m in a foreign country. I’m not saying any of things are bad per se, just that they are different enough to make me feel like I’m not in my own country. I like England, I holiday there once a year, yet I can’t say it feels like a foreign country because you don’t think Scotland feels foreign to you. Surely things like that are subjective? I also think New Zealand feels like a foreign country, does that say something about me as well, even though I him it’s a marvellous country? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/480 "2014-12-13T22:07:17Z")
> [@Arch\_Trout](#): > > Interesting, I’ve never came across any actual anti-English sentiment outside of the sporting banter. Outside of the banter. The top laddish banter. Top bants! So, actual anti-English sentiment, but excused because? Top banter, eh? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026.md?page=25)