# Where does the Scottish Everendum stand? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026 "2014-12-01T12:53:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/501 "2014-12-14T15:54:27Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > They do not. They voted to clearly say so, and by continuing to campaign for anything, you are ignoring that vote. I have a Democratic right to campaign for anything that is not illegal and I shall exercise it. I accept the vote in the same way that I accepted the vote in every general election I have been involved in since 1964; that didn’t stop me campaigning for people to change their minds between elections. You are no Democrat as you would disenfranchise nationalists and stop them taking their seats in Parliament. You would be willing to subvert democracy to maintain the Union and Conservative rule. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/502 "2014-12-14T16:00:53Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That may be true, but in the event that Scottish devolution was harming the rest of the UK, I would expect parliament to do it anyway, and to bypass the Lords if necessary. Whether than would increase support for independence would depend on many things, not least whether devolution was also harming Scotland, whether Scots felt that Independence would stop that harm or increase it, and whether they felt that accepting some level of harm was an acceptable trade off for independence. No respecter of the constitution then. The Government could not 'bypass the Lords as it would not be a money bill. The Lords could refuse assent and then the Government would have to go to the country with its intention clearly stated in its manifesto before it could invoke the Parliament Act. There is no-one so vengeful as a wronged patriot! Disrespecting Scotland’s people like that would really fan the flames up here. One advantage you do not have is residence in Scotland and knowledge of the political feelings here. Labour are in meltdown and we may even take the sole Conservative seat as well as all but one LibDem seats in 2016- Scotland would only have a handful of non-SNP constituencies. I am afraid that the pendulum has swung and is unlikely to swing back unless there are major concessions over further devolution. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/503 "2014-12-14T16:04:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Ultimately, though, the point is that whatever happens with Scotland, whilst it remains part of the Union all decisions must be made for the benefit of the Union as a whole. Now, if there’s no way to do that which will satisfy a majority of Scots, then independence may be the necessary answer. I don’t personally see any circumstances where it would benefit either side, and anyone pushing for it, IMHO, wants to cut off their nose to spite their face. > > Plenty could change by the mid 2030s, when the question is likely to next be asked, though. Practical politics suggests that it my well be necessary to appease the Scots either through further devolution as the cost of supporting a government or another referendum if the pressure remains high enough and there is a new SNP Government in 2016. I expect there to be either a demarche and Home Rule or a further referendum in the next decade. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/504 "2014-12-14T16:06:17Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You are no Democrat as you would disenfranchise nationalists and stop them taking their seats in Parliament. You would be willing to subvert democracy to maintain the Union and Conservative rule. There is no Conservative “rule”, as you would understand if you had the slightest understanding of democracy. To not want a tiny minority of people who want to destroy the Union to hold it’s parliament hostage is not anti-democratic, it’s quite the opposite. When you can get a majority in the UK who support Scottish independence, that majority should be bringing it up in the Commons, but until then the wishes of the majority, in Scotland as in the UK, should be respected. By you, and by the SNP. The SNP should respect the result of the referendum, and the views of their constituents, and refrain from campaigning for independence in the short and medium term. You can’t claim to respect democracy whilst repeatedly campaigning for a minority interest to win. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/505 "2014-12-14T16:16:31Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Practical politics suggests that it my well be necessary to appease the Scots either through further devolution as the cost of supporting a government or another referendum if the pressure remains high enough and there is a new SNP Government in 2016. I expect there to be either a demarche and Home Rule or a further referendum in the next decade. You know what? Fuck appeasing the Scots. Or rather, fuck appeasing the minority of the who want out of the Union. The UK should, and hopefully will, do what’s best for the whole of the union including Scotland, but not for Scotland at the expense of the rest of the Union. The majority of Scots want to remain part of the Union, and I would hope that the UK respects the more than you or the SNP does. I’m not angry because I’m a blind patriot who wants to preserve the union at any cost - or even at small cost, or because I’m a Tory. I’m angry because sore losers like you want to damage our country - the UK - against the wishes of either the UK as a whole or the wishes of Scotland, based on neither reason nor democracy, and then have the gall to accuse me and my country of ill faith and of being anti-democratic. The issue was settled earlier this year. The Scottish voters decisively rejected independence, in a referendum that all sides agreed to be bound by. Even the SNP considered it an once in a generation event. That you, and they, now reject that shows nothing but contempt for democracy and for your countrymen, both Scots and British. There should be no further referendum, nor campaigning towards one, until at least the mid 2030s. There are better things for both the British and Scottish governments to be dealing with, and any politician who won’t respect that should not be standing for election, let alone sitting in the Commons. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/506 "2014-12-14T16:30:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There is no Conservative “rule”, as you would understand if you had the slightest understanding of democracy. To not want a tiny minority of people who want to destroy the Union to hold it’s parliament hostage is not anti-democratic, it’s quite the opposite. I am afraid that the views of the constituents are becoming increasingly separatist and will continue to trend in that direction until something is done to settle the problem. There is considerable dissatisfaction with the Smith Commission and that is why the SNP opinion polls have gone so crazy and membership has increased from 25000 to 100000. Perhaps you feel that Ireland should still be part of the UK- that is where the ‘Unionist’ in Conservative and Unionist Party comes from. Look how well delaying the settlement of the Irish Question went for the Isles! We now need to settle the Scottish Question; it will not go away by itself. The UK Government has recognised that the decision on Independence for Scotland will be taken by the Scottish people alone and this is confirmed in the Smith proposals. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/507 "2014-12-14T16:33:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > When you can get a majority in the UK who support Scottish independence, that majority should be bringing it up in the Commons, but until then the wishes of the majority, in Scotland as in the UK, should be respected. By you, and by the SNP. I suspect that it would be quite easy to get a majority for Scottish Independence from a UK wide referendum- the polls from England during the referendum showed some 50% of the English wanted rid of Scotland. The SNP and I have every right to campaign for any legal outcome we wish. That is democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/508 "2014-12-14T16:35:41Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The majority of Scots want to remain part of the Union, and I would hope that the UK respects the more than you or the SNP does. That was the case in September. Current polls suggest that it is otherwise now. How many polls showing a majority for YES over No will it take for you to accept that the Scottish people now tend toward independence? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/509 "2014-12-14T16:35:42Z")
UK government is not calling another referendum for years to come. No matter what the polls say. Accept that fact. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/510 "2014-12-14T16:37:33Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You know what? Fuck appeasing the Scots. Or rather, fuck appeasing the minority of the who want out of the Union. The UK should, and hopefully will, do what’s best for the whole of the union including Scotland, but not for Scotland at the expense of the rest of the Union. > > The majority of Scots want to remain part of the Union, and I would hope that the UK respects the more than you or the SNP does. > > I’m not angry because I’m a blind patriot who wants to preserve the union at any cost - or even at small cost, or because I’m a Tory. I’m angry because sore losers like you want to damage our country - the UK - against the wishes of either the UK as a whole or the wishes of Scotland, based on neither reason nor democracy, and then have the gall to accuse me and my country of ill faith and of being anti-democratic. > > The issue was settled earlier this year. The Scottish voters decisively rejected independence, in a referendum that all sides agreed to be bound by. Even the SNP considered it an once in a generation event. That you, and they, now reject that shows nothing but contempt for democracy and for your countrymen, both Scots and British. > > There should be no further referendum, nor campaigning towards one, until at least the mid 2030s. There are better things for both the British and Scottish governments to be dealing with, and any politician who won’t respect that should not be standing for election, let alone sitting in the Commons. But there will be such campaigning and pressure for the foreseeable future. The move for independence or at least Home Rule will not decline- in fact it looks like it will continue to increase. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/511 "2014-12-14T16:39:23Z")
Where do you see it leveling off? 80% 90%? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/512 "2014-12-14T16:40:47Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > UK government is not calling another referendum for years to come. No matter what the polls say. Accept that fact. Events, dear boy, events! Harold Macmillan. A referendum is possible, further concessions towards home rule are more likely in the very short term. I would predict another referendum within a decade especially if there is another Conservative government. Imagine a Scotland with 50 SNP MPs, 1 Lib Dem and 8 Labour (indicated by the latest polls) being forced into the austerity program desired by Osbourne. That way lies insurrection. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/513 "2014-12-14T16:42:16Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Where do you see it leveling off? 80% 90%? I suspect that desire for further devolution will polls at 80%, Home Rule at about 65% and Independence at about 55%. That was where the poll that asked the question in October suggested was possible. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/514 "2014-12-14T16:44:53Z")
Nope. Not going to happen. Maybe in 10 years but we have no idea what sentiments will be then. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/515 "2014-12-14T16:46:19Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The SNP and I have every right to campaign for any legal outcome we wish. That is democracy. Legally, yes. Morally, no, not when they pledged to be bound by the result of the referendum, and not when there’s more important things to be getting on with now the question’s settled. The “Irish Question” thing is a red herring, as Ireland was never in practice an equal member of the Union, unlike Scotland (which arguably currently has, and inarguably previously had, a disproportionate amount of power to it’s size). Again unlike Scotland, Ireland was often treated like a colony from the time of Cromwell to the time of Victoria, and possibly earlier. Perhaps you should take _Braveheart_ off auto-repeat, and look at the actual history, and see just how many Scottish Kings and PMs the UK has had, and how many other important politicians and other influential figures through the whole UK. You should also realise that I don’t consider that a bad thing in any way, because I support union, and the loss of that shared history and culture would diminish both Scotland and the UK. Frankly comparing Scotland, which for the last half a millennium or so has been extremely well treated, with Ireland, which spent most of that time basically being raped, is pretty disgusting, and does your cause no favours. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/516 "2014-12-14T16:46:59Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Nope. Not going to happen. Maybe in 10 years but we have no idea what sentiments will be then. Events and desire for supply and confidence. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/517 "2014-12-14T16:49:33Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Legally, yes. Morally, no, not when they pledged to be bound by the result of the referendum, and not when there’s more important things to be getting on with now the question’s settled. Whose morals? Obviously yours! But not the morals of a democrat. I didn’t pledge anything and the SNP have elected a new leader with different views. We have every right to continue to campaign and I assure you that we will. The SNP will, be there in the thick of it or harrying from the sidelines, pressing for further powers with the support of a majority of the Scottish people. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/518 "2014-12-14T16:52:41Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > That was the case in September. Current polls suggest that it is otherwise now. How many polls showing a majority for YES over No will it take for you to accept that the Scottish people now tend toward independence? At the moment, no amount. Polls almost always show dissatisfaction with the result of a vote. Ask me again in a generation, when the referendum result is no longer considered binding by the SNP and the UK government. Or, were the SNP lying? That would be a shock… The Scottish people spoke, and decisively rejected independence. 3 months is nowhere near long enough to change that. > [@Pjen](#): > > I suspect that desire for further devolution will polls at 80%, Home Rule at about 65% and Independence at about 55%. That was where the poll that asked the question in October suggested was possible. Not a chance. Getting 80% of a country to agree on _anything_ is the province of dictators. Things will settle down soon, people will get back to thinking about everyday life, and the Scots will continue to realise that not only are they getting the further devolution they want, or at least some of them want, but that the Union benefits them in many ways. If we do get 5 years of SNP control of both parliaments, though, anything could change. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/519 "2014-12-14T16:55:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The “Irish Question” thing is a red herring, as Ireland was never in practice an equal member of the Union, unlike Scotland (which arguably currently has, and inarguably previously had, a disproportionate amount of power to it’s size). Again unlike Scotland, Ireland was often treated like a colony from the time of Cromwell to the time of Victoria, and possibly earlier. Then Ireland was never part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland from 1801 to 1927 then. And the English Monarchs since Henry the Eighth were not monarchs of Ireland since 1534- nearly seventy years before the Union of the Crowns of Scotland and England. Which history books are you using? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/520 "2014-12-14T16:56:52Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Events, dear boy, events! Harold Macmillan. > > A referendum is possible, further concessions towards home rule are more likely in the very short term. I would predict another referendum within a decade especially if there is another Conservative government. > > Imagine a Scotland with 50 SNP MPs, 1 Lib Dem and 8 Labour (indicated by the latest polls) being forced into the austerity program desired by Osbourne. That way lies insurrection. I’d rather imagine a UK with a Conservative majority imposing a successful austerity program that benefits the whole country, without having to spend more money - and possible require further austerity - putting down an insurrection. Thanks for finally making your _Braveheart_ fantasies explicit, though. Scotland isn’t Ireland, and this isn’t 1916. There is not even the slightest chance of a successful insurrection, or that any more than a tiny amount of Scots would support it. If it were tried, all powers would be repatriated, with the full consent of the majority of the Scots, by a Grand Coalition if necessary, and there would be no chance of any devolution, let alone independence, for a lifetime. There will no more be a violent separation than there was a chance of the North seceding during the miner’s strikes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026.md?page=27)