# Where does the Scottish Everendum stand? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026 "2014-12-01T12:53:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/701 "2015-01-06T12:52:43Z")
> [@Arch Trout](#): > > I also note how you say ‘English money’ - so much for the union where all four countries put into the Union and it gets distributed accordingly within the Union. But the money doesn’t get “distributed accordingly” within the Union, does it? Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland receive lump sums under Barnett regardless of need which is why we have oddities like Scotland receiving £1600 per capita in public spending more than in England, the home nation with the least amount of public money spent on it. If the money was distributed accordingly, English public spending would go up and Scottish and Northern Irish public spending would go down. > [@Pjen](#): > > Cite for Labour’s lead declining week by week - what base date are you using? I gave you the cite at the bottom of my last post. Their monthly average lead in the polls has been plummeting month-on-month for over a year. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/702 "2015-01-06T12:56:05Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The people who get the greatest net benefit from the Union are Londoners who receive considerably more tax revenue than they contribute. Perhaps the ire should be directed there? What are you talking about? [London receives £9,435 per head in public spending. Scotland receives £10,152 per head](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10465138/Chasm-between-English-and-Scottish-spending-widens.html). London also contributes the most in tax monies out of any region in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/703 "2015-01-06T13:04:01Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The people who get the greatest net benefit from the Union are Londoners who receive considerably more tax revenue than they contribute. Perhaps the ire should be directed there? Last time I checked, a bunch of ungrateful Londoners weren’t trying to leave the Union, and to take with them assets that the whole of the Union have created. Also, I can only imagine that you’re only considering income tax paid in London, when you include all the taxes paid by the financial sector that increases London’s contribution massively. There have actually been calls to return London’s taxes to London, and there’s some merit in that, as there’s areas of London that are massively disadvantaged. And yet that money keeps flowing to Scotland. [Cite](http://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/give-london-back-its-tax-boris-johnson-demands-return-on-cash-that-capital-makes-for-britain-7618555.html) ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/704 "2015-01-06T13:06:27Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Acceptance that Scotland is far better off in the Union, an end to the idea that nationalists belong in Parliament, and end to the idea of “Scottish Oil” at least while Scotland remains in the Union… That would do for starters. Voting Conservative would help as well, instead of voting for parties that make things worse, but I suspect that’s a non-starter. > > I don’t object to the idea of taxes on rich Londoners going to _any_ poorer parts of the UK, I have a problem with a devolved Scottish government using English money to give their portion of the NHS more funding than the English parts get, then criticising the Westminster government that allows them to do it. If Scotland wants to spend more on services, it should use its tax-raising powers to do so. Which it hasn’t - as I’ve repeatedly mentioned when talking about how the Scottish Parliament refuses to use its devolved powers, and you’ve pretended doesn’t happen. > > No, I don’t want Scotland to leave the Union, as it would be bad for each side. But I don’t think paying it to remain is acceptable, either. Well nearly half of the population of the UK disagree that Scotland is better in the union rather than out. 45% Scots voted so and opinion polls of English voters were similarly inclined. Other beliefs than yours are available. Of course Nationalists should be allowed in the British National Legislature. Believing in separation does not take away ones franchise, only belief and acts involving breaches of the law. The Scottish Parliament has used its devolved powers to change the social face of Scotland beyond recognition. I believe that you have no idea how different it feels living in Scotland to living in England! It is accepted that should separation occur, the oil fields on Scotland’s coastal shelf would belong to the successor state. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/705 "2015-01-06T13:16:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Last time I checked, a bunch of ungrateful Londoners weren’t trying to leave the Union, and to take with them assets that the whole of the Union have created. > > Also, I can only imagine that you’re only considering income tax paid in London, when you include all the taxes paid by the financial sector that increases London’s contribution massively. There have actually been calls to return London’s taxes to London, and there’s some merit in that, as there’s areas of London that are massively disadvantaged. And yet that money keeps flowing to Scotland. > > [Cite](http://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/give-london-back-its-tax-boris-johnson-demands-return-on-cash-that-capital-makes-for-britain-7618555.html) Boris’s analysis is the same as the SNP analysis of oil revenue. Thanks for conceding the point. So all oil revenue from the Scottish waters may be applied to the Scottish Balance Sheet in the same way that all revenues from the City of London can be applied to the London balance sheet! In the case of Scotland, net balance is obtained by this formula as Tax Income including oil is high as is spending. In London Tax income is high but direct expenditure is low. However when non-London expenditure on London is added (national cost of the local infrastructure) London benefits massively. “His argument is akin to Alex Salmond’s view about “Scotland’s oil” and the taxes generated from the Scottish part of the North Sea. If Johnson were successful it would be possible to increase investment in the city’s infrastructure or services and/or to cut local taxation. Elsewhere in Britain the reverse would be the case, generating a headache for the Chancellor.” ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/706 "2015-01-06T13:17:16Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Well nearly half of the population of the UK disagree that Scotland is better in the union rather than out. 45% Scots voted so and opinion polls of English voters were similarly inclined. Other beliefs than yours are available. No-one who actually understands the finances could believe that Scotland’s better off alone. Any opinions to the contrary are factually incorrect. > [@](#): > > Of course Nationalists should be allowed in the British National Legislature. Believing in separation does not take away ones franchise, only belief and acts involving breaches of the law. That they are legally allowed to be there doesn’t make it right. > [@](#): > > The Scottish Parliament has used its devolved powers to change the social face of Scotland beyond recognition. I believe that you have no idea how different it feels living in Scotland to living in England! Yes, well done, now try keeping that going without the rest of the Union subsidising you. I’d be interested to see how the massive rises in income tax necessary would go down. Oh, my mistake, your “government” refuses to use its power of taxation. Anyone can make a country look better than its neighbour by spending other people’s money. The challenge would be to do so without. > [@](#): > > It is accepted that should separation occur, the oil fields on Scotland’s coastal shelf would belong to the successor state. Get over it. What separation? What successor state? It was voted against, there’s no mandate or desire for it to happen. The oil belongs to the UK - the only state involved. Scotland has no more moral claim to the exploitation of it than any other part of the UK. But even if separation did occur, and Scotland had all the tax revenue from the oil, it would still be significantly poorer than it is now, as a member of the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/707 "2015-01-06T13:20:43Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Boris’s analysis is the same as the SNP analysis of oil revenue. Thanks for conceding the point. So all oil revenue from the Scottish waters may be applied to the Scottish Balance Sheet in the same way that all revenues from the City of London can be applied to the London balance sheet! > > In the case of Scotland, net balance is obtained by this formula as Tax Income including oil is high as is spending. In London Tax income is high but direct expenditure is low. However when non-London expenditure on London is added (national cost of the local infrastructure) London benefits massively. > > “His argument is akin to Alex Salmond’s view about “Scotland’s oil” and the taxes generated from the Scottish part of the North Sea. If Johnson were successful it would be possible to increase investment in the city’s infrastructure or services and/or to cut local taxation. Elsewhere in Britain the reverse would be the case, generating a headache for the Chancellor.” Yeah, except that it’s actually true that London generates more than it spends, and false that Scotland does, even when oil revenue is taken into account. Not that I necessarily agree with Johnson that it should be returned to London, as you said earlier the money should go where it’s needed. Although if that happened, more would be spent in London and less in Scotland, but more still in northern England and north Wales, where it’s most needed. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/708 "2015-01-06T13:21:16Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > I gave you the cite at the bottom of my last post. Their monthly average lead in the polls has been plummeting month-on-month for over a year. I certainly agree that over the past two years Labour’s lead has decreased, but the signs are that evened out and most analysts are now predicting a final vote with Labour and Tories level. Statistics do not usually support straight line graph predictions. No reliable agency has yet suggested that there is any chance of a Conservative majority in four months. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/709 "2015-01-06T13:21:25Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Boris’s analysis is the same as the SNP analysis of oil revenue. Thanks for conceding the point. So all oil revenue from the Scottish waters may be applied to the Scottish Balance Sheet in the same way that all revenues from the City of London can be applied to the London balance sheet! It already is under GERS calculations. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/710 "2015-01-06T13:23:26Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > What are you talking about? [London receives £9,435 per head in public spending. Scotland receives £10,152 per head](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10465138/Chasm-between-English-and-Scottish-spending-widens.html). London also contributes the most in tax monies out of any region in the UK. This analysis omits the benefits that the South East gains from National Infrastructure investment from Heathrow Airport to access to National institutions, transport and other direct government expenditure. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/711 "2015-01-06T13:25:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No-one who actually understands the finances could believe that Scotland’s better off alone. Any opinions to the contrary are factually incorrect. Only your opinions appear to be correct. The rest of us must just be stupid fools. I trust you never intend to stand for election on the platform of reforming the public! ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/712 "2015-01-06T13:25:32Z")
As does the figure for Scotland. Accept that you were wrong Pjen. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/713 "2015-01-06T13:26:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That they are legally allowed to be there doesn’t make it right. Rightness and Justness are matters of opinion. Many share a different opinion to yours. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/714 "2015-01-06T13:27:31Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > As does the figure for Scotland. Accept that you were wrong Pjen. Agreed. And as National Infrastructure expenditure in the South EAst is High and in the rest of the country it is low, this skews the figures further. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/715 "2015-01-06T13:29:24Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, well done, now try keeping that going without the rest of the Union subsidising you. I’d be interested to see how the massive rises in income tax necessary would go down. Oh, my mistake, your “government” refuses to use its power of taxation. > > Anyone can make a country look better than its neighbour by spending other people’s money. The challenge would be to do so without. As noted above, notional national income and expenditure in Scotland are in rough balance over time if Oil revenues are included. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/716 "2015-01-06T13:31:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What separation? What successor state? It was voted against, there’s no mandate or desire for it to happen. The oil belongs to the UK - the only state involved. Scotland has no more moral claim to the exploitation of it than any other part of the UK. > > But even if separation did occur, and Scotland had all the tax revenue from the oil, it would still be significantly poorer than it is now, as a member of the UK. HMG has been quite clear that should Scotland gain independence, the Oil revenue would go from Scottish platforms to Scotland and those from English platforms to England. No-one has suggested the sort of immoral land and oil grab that you support. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/717 "2015-01-06T13:32:29Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Only your opinions appear to be correct. The rest of us must just be stupid fools. I trust you never intend to stand for election on the platform of reforming the public! No, my facts are correct. People who form their opinions based on denial of the facts are, indeed, stupid fools. It’s a fact that, even with oil revenue accounted for, Scotland takes more money from the Union than it provides, and it’s a fact that no figures provided by the SNP actually show a way to replace that income. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/718 "2015-01-06T13:33:05Z")
Lots of fog and flak, but no-one seems to want to talk about Labour’s offer to fund the NHS in Scotland by the English mansion tax, or about Miliband’s gentle retreat over disarmament. Let the gentle wooing continue! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/719 "2015-01-06T13:36:16Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > As noted above, notional national income and expenditure in Scotland are in rough balance over time if Oil revenues are included. False, as has been repeatedly cited in all these threads. Cites, I should add, that mostly date from before the massive fall in oil prices last year. > [@Pjen](#): > > HMG has been quite clear that should Scotland gain independence, the Oil revenue would go from Scottish platforms to Scotland and those from English platforms to England. No-one has suggested the sort of immoral land and oil grab that you support. What “land grab”? The oil belongs to the UK, and as Scotland voted against independence they’ll remain that way. Yes, after any hypothetical independence they’d probably belong to Scotland, but that would depend on the negotiated settlement. What’s that got to do with anything? Scotland doesn’t want independence, and isn’t becoming independent. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/720 "2015-01-06T13:36:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, my facts are correct. People who form their opinions based on denial of the facts are, indeed, stupid fools. > > It’s a fact that, even with oil revenue accounted for, Scotland takes more money from the Union than it provides, and it’s a fact that no figures provided by the SNP actually show a way to replace that income. But maybe people who are not died in the wool tories consider other factors then mere national income. Money is not everything, and I expect that many Scots feel that if there was a financial downside to independence, that might be worth considering. That does not make them fools, merely means that they value matters differently to you. I am beginning to wonder whether you are an inexperienced youth as such moral certitude and pigheadedness are rarely found in people of more years and experience. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026.md?page=37)