# Where does the Scottish Everendum stand? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026 "2014-12-01T12:53:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/781 "2015-01-07T12:10:42Z")
When I moved to Scotland over a decade ago I found that I has to work hard to separate my uses of the words English and British as I had an unconscious tendency to use the particular to refer to the general. You see this regularly in these debates where people will refer to Matters using inexact terminology. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/782 "2015-01-07T12:12:17Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > No. As I explained, there is a tendency for the English to see Britisness defined by Englishness, but the other nations to see their nationality in a complex relationship with Britishness. It is a majoritarian attitude. No, you didn’t _explain_. You _stated_, and it was wrong then, and it’s wrong now. It’s wrong both in that English people understand the difference between Englishness and Britishness, and also in that there’s a complex relationship between, say, Welshness and Britishness. I am both English and British, they are both Welsh and British. Simple, and that’s really all there is to it. Same as I’m also European, and my attitude towards the EU doesn’t affect that. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/783 "2015-01-07T12:13:44Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > When I moved to Scotland over a decade ago I found that I has to work hard to separate my uses of the words English and British as I had an unconscious tendency to use the particular to refer to the general. You see this regularly in these debates where people will refer to Matters using inexact terminology. Don’t assume your failings are shared by the majority. Didn’t you live in America for years? That’s probably where you picked up the failure to make the distinction, not in England. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/784 "2015-01-07T12:19:38Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, you didn’t _explain_. You _stated_, and it was wrong then, and it’s wrong now. It’s wrong both in that English people understand the difference between Englishness and Britishness, and also in that there’s a complex relationship between, say, Welshness and Britishness. I am both English and British, they are both Welsh and British. Simple, and that’s really all there is to it. > > Same as I’m also European, and my attitude towards the EU doesn’t affect that. That is exactly the problem - the blandness of the majority. 55 million people out of 65 million can easily conclave British and English descriptions, but minority communities do not. Living in a Scottish environment makes one very aware of such transgressions. For example the BBC series “A History of Britain” addressed little Welsh history before the Tudor, no Scottish history save relationships with England before James VI and no Irish history save the troubles and its consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Arch\_Trout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@Arch\_Trout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arch_Trout)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/785 "2015-01-07T12:20:46Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Yes. > > Understandable, seeing as the majority of posters from elsewhere in the Union are English and the thread is about Scotland and the Union. A similar phenomenon would occur in any thread on Northern Ireland and the Union. Further, as much of the discussion in this thread now centres around public spending in the respective Home Nations, you’d hardly expect the Welsh and Northern Irish to be complaining seeing as they’re net drains on the Union. > > But, for balance, and as you requested it, here it is: Northern Ireland is an embarrassing money sink that doesn’t add anything to the Union other than headaches and a source of diplomatic disputes with our nearest neighbour. The country has a dedicated “marching season” for overt displays of sectarianism, for fuck’s sake, that inevitably descends into running street battles between the two sides. The fact that Cameron had to pledge an extra £1 billion in public money to Stormont as a “sweetener” for the parties in Northern Ireland to actually sit around a table and form a government due to a dispute over flags, or some other stupid shit, is yet further proof that we in England are better off alone. The place already receives the most public spending out of anywhere in the UK and further billions are being thrown around because of a flag dispute? Enough of this bullshit. Well as far as you and I are concerned there’s really no discussion. We both want the same thing but for different reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/786 "2015-01-07T12:21:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Don’t assume your failings are shared by the majority. Didn’t you live in America for years? That’s probably where you picked up the failure to make the distinction, not in England. Don’t assume. I suspect I have lived continuously in England and Scotland for longer than you have been alive. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/787 "2015-01-07T12:24:27Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Don’t assume. I suspect I have lived continuously in England and Scotland for longer than you have been alive. You moved to Scotland “over a decade” ago. Unless you’re deliberately being slippery with words, then you obviously haven’t lived in Scotland for more than half the time I’ve been alive. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/788 "2015-01-07T12:26:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You moved to Scotland “over a decade” ago. Unless you’re deliberately being slippery with words, then you obviously haven’t lived in Scotland for more than half the time I’ve been alive. Hit the post button when changing Britain to England and Scotland. I returned from the USA in 1970 ---
**Author:** ![Arch\_Trout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@Arch\_Trout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arch_Trout)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/789 "2015-01-07T12:29:30Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > I don’t deny that. I consider myself to place the interests of the Union above that of any particular country of the UK, though. I am quite at ease with Scotland, Wales and NI receiving more money, and having a presence on English affairs, as I think the nature of the Union justifies it. But that’s just me. An excellent sentiment that one hardly hears from anyone English weighing in on the Scottish independence debate. Much as I want independence for Scotland its not a complete travesty that we are still in the union because by and large it does work. Not as well as it could but you’d have to be completely blinkered not to see that there are advantages as well as disadvantages to Scotland being in the union. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/790 "2015-01-07T12:33:10Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > That is exactly the problem - the blandness of the majority. 55 million people out of 65 million can easily conclave British and English descriptions, but minority communities do not. “Conclave”? What? Also, “blandness”? I honestly can’t make heads or tails of this statement… ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/791 "2015-01-07T12:36:23Z")
> [@Arch\_Trout](#): > > An excellent sentiment that one hardly hears from anyone English weighing in on the Scottish independence debate. > > Much as I want independence for Scotland its not a complete travesty that we are still in the union because by and large it does work. > Not as well as it could but you’d have to be completely blinkered not to see that there are advantages as well as disadvantages to Scotland being in the union. Agree totally. My goal has always been devolution towards a federal structure so that decisions are taken at a more appropriate level. I also believe that asking nicely ‘cap in hand’ for devolution rarely works, it takes more than that to wrest power from any level of government. Nationalism certainly is one route to federalism, and it is my contention that the Scottish people have a rofht to claim further devolution and possibly independence in any legal and peaceful action. My personal wish is virtual home rule in a federal structure. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/792 "2015-01-07T12:37:55Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > “Conclave”? What? Also, “blandness”? I honestly can’t make heads or tails of this statement… Conflate. Auto correct on a smart phone. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/793 "2015-01-07T12:39:47Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > My personal wish is virtual home rule in a federal structure. I think a federal structure for the UK could only work if England itself were broken up into smaller federal entities, though. A single parliament for a federal England would accelerate the breakup of the UK. I am also cautious about the durability of EV4EL, but I suppose we shall see. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/794 "2015-01-07T12:43:03Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Conflate. Auto correct on a smart phone. Ok, the comment still doesn’t make sense, as English people don’t conflate Englishness and Britishness, any more than we do European. Or, for example, Liverpudlian. For all that you say I don’t know about Scotland, it’s clear you know very little about England. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/795 "2015-01-07T12:44:14Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Hit the post button when changing Britain to England and Scotland. I returned from the USA in 1970 Oh, the irony. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/796 "2015-01-07T12:45:50Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > I think a federal structure for the UK could only work if England itself were broken up into smaller federal entities, though. A single parliament for a federal England would accelerate the breakup of the UK. I am also cautious about the durability of EV4EL, but I suppose we shall see. The only way to make EVEL work would be to tie it into devolution, so that one couldn’t be repealed without the other. Wouldn’t prevent a future government repealing it then passing a separate devolution act, but it would make it perfectly clear what they were doing. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/797 "2015-01-07T12:47:46Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Ok, the comment still doesn’t make sense, as English people don’t conflate Englishness and Britishness, any more than we do European. Or, for example, Liverpudlian. > > For all that you say I don’t know about Scotland, it’s clear you know very little about England. Except for living there over fifty years of course. Don’t be silly ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/798 "2015-01-07T12:53:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The only way to make EVEL work would be to tie it into devolution, so that one couldn’t be repealed without the other. Wouldn’t prevent a future government repealing it then passing a separate devolution act, but it would make it perfectly clear what they were doing. You have a very narrow view of possibility. It would be very easy to create a situation where the federal structure could not be altered by Westminster alone. All such written constitutions rely on some sort of anchoring to a principle with difficult conditions for changing the structure. If we did move to a federal structure, the supremacy of Parliament could easily be over ridden. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/799 "2015-01-07T12:53:46Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Except for living there over fifty years of course. Don’t be silly Well, nothing you post about England has anything to do with the way the country actually is… ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026/800 "2015-01-07T12:58:05Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Ok, the comment still doesn’t make sense, as English people don’t conflate Englishness and Britishness, any more than we do European. Or It is difficult for someone who is narrow minded and English to understand how much conflation there is in the English mind set. I am reminded when I was asked to present a course on health and social care in Wales, a course which I had presented many times in various parts of England. Repeatedly I was assailed with the cry “Not in the Principality” Not unfairly the British Union has been described as three terriers sharing a bed with a Great Dane. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-scottish-everendum-stand/706026.md?page=41)