# Where does the term "86" come from?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-term-86-come-from/213243
**Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
**Created:** [November 14, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-term-86-come-from/213243 "2003-11-14T14:18:47Z")
**Posts on this page:** 9
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@rezwar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rezwar)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2003, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-term-86-come-from/213243/21 "2003-11-21T00:26:02Z")
welly, welly, well, well dear dopers?( from a clockwork orange)
ok, where i live there is a lot of use for this term; “86’d”, got(get) 86’d, etc. I.E\> yeah, i got 86’d last night from my old laddy.\<
the 86 we talk of here is the one two lane blacktop road that runs for about 120 miles through our lands. you cant miss it, one road, its the only road or at least the only main paved road, since 1910, for 120 miles, running east to west. its even called highway 86. So, here at least, it means ‘hitting the highway’ or ‘getting the boot’, being told to leave, exit, be barred from returning, etc,etc. hope this helps.
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### Author:  [@rezwar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rezwar)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-term-86-come-from/213243/22 "2003-11-21T01:02:16Z")
ok you can look at a map of arizona if you need too
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### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2003, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-term-86-come-from/213243/23 "2003-11-21T05:40:00Z")
**rezwar**. Your highway 86(The old road to Cochise) wasn’t paved until WWII or later. And it wasn’t called highway 86 until then. So it’s doubtful that Californians, who probably authored the term “86” sometime in the 1920’s picked it up from your road.
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### Author:  [@rezwar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rezwar)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-term-86-come-from/213243/24 "2003-11-21T22:57:21Z")
SAMCLEM— i suspect you are correct. but ’ old road to COchise’? that isn’t anywhere near here. this was an old cattle drive trail, that we used to have a drive to Tucson( to the rail road stockyard , to send our range beef , on the Union Pacific RR.) so it surely reached CA. the miners at the time also used it to haul ore from the mines in Ajo, Az. old ‘boom towns’ here in our local area also used it. there would have been alot of californian miners here in our area, (southern arizona, south of Phoenix, west of Tucson, east of Yuma, the newly acquired Gadsen Purchase of 1853). …perhaps 86 was a mining reference??
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### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-term-86-come-from/213243/25 "2003-11-22T01:57:30Z")
**rezwar** I’m starting to like you. You seem to be reasonable.
I think that if you were to go back to the 1900-1940 period, you would find that the “road to Cochise” might just be your rt 86. Not hard to believe. What is is–100+ miles? The name might have originated 100-200 years ago.
There’s absolutely NO evidence that “86” is a mining reference.
But we are always looking for cites that extend our point of view.
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### Author:  [@Raymond\_Luxury\_Yacht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raymond_Luxury_Yacht)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2003, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-term-86-come-from/213243/26 "2003-11-22T06:18:19Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by samclem \*
> \*\*The Chumley’s explanation is entertaining, but wrong. \*\*
How can you be so certain? There seems to be no clear cut answer.
From your cite:
> [@](#):
>
> …it does seem that eighty-six was first used in restaurants and bars, either in the late 1920’s or early 1930’s; the first firmly attested source is in the journal American Speech for February 1936; another example **may** be from the mid 1920’s - **the date is uncertain** - which would rule out Chumley’s, as it didn’t open until 1927.
If it _may_ be from the mid 1920’s, then doesn’t it stand to reason that it also _may not_ be from the mid 1920’s?
By no means am I saying that the Chumley’s explanation is true, I’m simply saying that it might be.
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### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-term-86-come-from/213243/27 "2003-11-22T20:44:24Z")
**jehova68**. You’re correct. I should have only said that the Chumley’s explanation is not likely to be correct. If anyone reading this knows WHEN the Chumley’s theory first was proposed, I’d love to know. MY own suspicion is that it is rather a recent thing. Last 20-30 years or so. I’m not aware of any proof about the Chumley’s claim.
There is a book, written in 1943, which contains the following:
> [@](#):
>
> There was a bar in the Belasco building…but Barrymore was known in that cubby as an “eight-six.” An “eighty-six” in the patois of western dispensers means, “Don’t serve him!”
This lends some credence to the expression originating in California. And the book was referring to the 1920’s.
The fact that we’ve only found the term “86” used as a verb from 1955 tends to suggest that they didn’t say “86 the booze” at Chumley’s in the late 1920’s. They _could_ have, but it’s not likely.
The coincidence of Chumley’s having an address of ‘86’ is most likely just that–coincidence.
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### Author:  [@whitetho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whitetho)
#### Post date: [December 26, 2003, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-term-86-come-from/213243/28 "2003-12-26T12:51:30Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by whitetho \*
> **However, this code either skipped some numbers, or a few quickly dropped out of general use, because none of the reviews I’ve seen include any meaning for “86”.**
I have subsequetly found one reference to “86” as a telegraph code, although there doesn’t appear to be any link between this example and the later usage for “nix”. In the 1910 edition of “Electricity Applied to Railways”, by Marshall M. Kirkland, a list of “Abbreviations in Railway Telegraphy” lists 86 as standing for “Division Superintendent or Superintendent of Telegraph”.
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### Author:  [@adirondack\_mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adirondack_mike)
#### Post date: [December 26, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-term-86-come-from/213243/29 "2003-12-26T13:53:50Z")
This is what we do **know** about 86 -
The first citations are from the 1930’s and were used at lunch counters. The meanings are 1) out of an item, 2) glass of water, and 3) a person who is not to be served. In addition to 86 there are many other number codes as I mentioned earlier in the post. Without citation 86 is listed under rhyming slang in the _Dictionary of American Slang_. (_cite: Dictionary of American Slang, 1960; The American Language, Supplement 2, 1948._)
IMO any explanation on where 86 comes from needs to start with lunch counter usage and work backwards. If it was a radio term how did it make the transission. If it was from some fancy shmancy steak joint how did it end up popular at plain old ordinary lunch counters. Are the other number codes a result of 86 are evolved with it. Explain how it came into popular usage at lunch counters in the 1930’s.
I propose three hypotheses -
1. Slang from the 1920’s - the generation that brought us 23 skidoo and the bee’s knees. Nix rhymes with six “Nix that order”, or already exists in a phrase t “deep six.” Eighty-six just happens to sound a little bit better.
2. Railroad or Hobo usage - IIRC early diners were old railcars set up on sidings (Hardys got started this way). Since these establishments were prob. frequented by people associated w/ railroads perhaps the term is an old railroad term.
3. As I mentioned previousely an americanized french phrase from returning WWI troops - Unlikely, since I can’t find any military slang references which would seem unlikely.
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