# Where does the U.S. justice system draw the line between the powers of the president and obstruction **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 2, 2017, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-u-s-justice-system-draw-the-line-between-the-powers-of-the-president-and-obstruction/800468 "2017-11-02T06:34:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-u-s-justice-system-draw-the-line-between-the-powers-of-the-president-and-obstruction/800468/1 "2017-11-02T06:34:27Z")
Hi Where does the U.S. justice system draw the line between the powers of the president to fire and FBI director/pardoning those under investigation by the FBI and obstruction of justice. What has a US President typically/traditionally been able to get away with without being impeached? Is Alan Dershowitz correct on his interpretation of the constitution or are the powers of the presidential powers of pardoning subject to debate? I look forward to your feedback. “Alan Dershowitz Says Trump Cannot Be Guilty of Obstruction While Exercizing His Constitutional Authority” [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ15ymETv-s) ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-u-s-justice-system-draw-the-line-between-the-powers-of-the-president-and-obstruction/800468/2 "2017-11-02T08:29:33Z")
The truth seems to be, we’re just discovering that nobody really knows. But we may be about to find out. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-u-s-justice-system-draw-the-line-between-the-powers-of-the-president-and-obstruction/800468/3 "2017-11-02T12:31:50Z")
WAG: As a legal matter, he probably can’t be prosecuted. As evidence for possible impeachment, it is up to HR to decide and, in any subsequent trial, up to the senate. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-u-s-justice-system-draw-the-line-between-the-powers-of-the-president-and-obstruction/800468/4 "2017-11-02T13:38:15Z")
It should be noted that other highly credentialed people disagree with Dershowitz about this. As a practical matter though, you have to wonder if a responsible prosecutor would try to go after the POTUS based on an untested and possibly invalid legal theory. So it’s possible that Dershowitz’ view may carry the day merely by dint of his expressing it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-u-s-justice-system-draw-the-line-between-the-powers-of-the-president-and-obstruction/800468/5 "2017-11-02T13:51:33Z")
There are very few limits on the President’s pardon power: It only applies to federal crimes, and he can’t use it in cases of impeachment. Anything else is fair game, and since the power is laid out in the Constitution, it’s not even possible to impose any further limits on it. That said, while the President certainly can pardon people under investigation, it might not be a good idea for him. Once a person is pardoned, they are no longer at risk of self-incrimination, and so they can’t hide behind the Fifth Amendment any more. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-u-s-justice-system-draw-the-line-between-the-powers-of-the-president-and-obstruction/800468/6 "2017-11-02T13:56:25Z")
Since this is not a matter of established law, let’s move it over to Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![dstarfire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dstarfire/32/5762_2.png) [@dstarfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dstarfire)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-u-s-justice-system-draw-the-line-between-the-powers-of-the-president-and-obstruction/800468/7 "2017-11-02T23:03:16Z")
ISTR an early scotus case addressed the lack of restraint on the power of presidential pardons. The final ruling mentioned that the limitless nature of this power is intentional, beneficial, and had a LONG tradition going back through to monarchs, popes, and the like. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-u-s-justice-system-draw-the-line-between-the-powers-of-the-president-and-obstruction/800468/8 "2017-11-02T23:49:01Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > WAG: As a legal matter, he probably can’t be prosecuted. As evidence for possible impeachment, it is up to HR to decide and, in any subsequent trial, up to the senate. That hasn’t been tested, I don’t think they are sure if a sitting president can be indicted. Even if Trump can’t be prosecuted while president, once he leaves office I assume he can be prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-u-s-justice-system-draw-the-line-between-the-powers-of-the-president-and-obstruction/800468/9 "2017-11-02T23:57:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There are very few limits on the President’s pardon power: It only applies to federal crimes, and he can’t use it in cases of impeachment. And the latter merely means that a pardon doesn’t affect the impeachment process. The underlying crime (if there is one) can still be pardoned. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2017, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-u-s-justice-system-draw-the-line-between-the-powers-of-the-president-and-obstruction/800468/10 "2017-11-03T05:54:20Z")
The Presidents takes an oath to _“faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States”_ and to _“preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States”_. The Constitution than defines what his duties are: _“He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper; he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers; he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States.”_ So if the President fires an official (or take any other act pursuant to his power of office) the legal standard should be did the firing advance or hinder the execution of the law? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2017, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-u-s-justice-system-draw-the-line-between-the-powers-of-the-president-and-obstruction/800468/11 "2017-11-03T06:10:59Z")
Based on my reading of these two Lawfare articles, the basic message is that the President is held by the Constitution to act faithfully in the interest of the nation and, moreover, to be an “honorable” person (it’s an 18th century document, after all). Hiding an attack by a foreign nation on the country, out of fear that it might make him look bad in some way, is pretty well within the realm of being an impeachable offense by the rules of the gig as laid out. Obviously, it’s up to Congress to make that determination, but there’s sufficient grounds to do so if they believed that this is what is happening. > **[A President’s Words Matter: Deception of the Public and the Impeachable Offense](https://www.lawfareblog.com/presidents-words-matter-deception-public-and-impeachable-offense)** > > In the past week, the president restated his view that assertions of Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election are a “hoax.” He has said this before. > **[A President’s Words Matter, Part II: Impeachment Standards and the Case of...](https://www.lawfareblog.com/presidents-words-matter-part-ii-impeachment-standards-and-case-demagogue)** > > I argued here recently that the president might find himself accountable in an impeachment inquiry for actively deceiving the public by denying Russian interference in the 2016 election. There is clear precedent: Richard Nixon’s lies to the public... ---
**Author:** ![ThisIsTheEnd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisistheend/32/4713_2.png) [@ThisIsTheEnd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisIsTheEnd)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-the-u-s-justice-system-draw-the-line-between-the-powers-of-the-president-and-obstruction/800468/12 "2017-11-04T10:20:00Z")
You may have mixed together two different subjects. Can the President be prosecuted for obstruction of justice? The most common opinion/answer I find is probably not. Is impeachment part of the “US justice system?” I don’t think so, but it doesn’t really matter. Can the President be impeached for exercising a power nobody disputes he has? Yes, of course. Congress states that he did it for X reason and that that consists of an _ **abuse** _ of said power.