# Where does your or my success come from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 17, 2022, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-or-my-success-come-from/957946 "2022-01-17T19:23:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-or-my-success-come-from/957946/61 "2022-01-22T12:24:23Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I presume nobody held a gun to your head to work at a company like that. Nobody held a gun to my head. But I didn’t understand, then, what I do now. The myth’s behavior includes making it easier for us to believe the myth, if we’re succeeding. The people who succeed typically don’t see it, and the people who see it typically don’t succeed. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-or-my-success-come-from/957946/62 "2022-01-22T16:24:06Z")
I think “meritocracy” is a myth because it presumes that there is some objective way we can measure people against each other. And even if we could, excellence at one role does not necessarily translate to excellence at the next level. Everything I’ve read about “success” says that one of the biggest factors is how much one internalizes that there are factors within their control. Sure, “luck”, “talent”, and other factors plays into it. But everyone I know who has achieved success, whether that’s becoming a corporate executive, starting a business, selling real estate, being a musician, performing on Broadway, athletics, or whatever has done so because they took steps to make that happen. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-or-my-success-come-from/957946/63 "2022-01-22T19:37:58Z")
I was very lucky. First being born to a white family, even if working class. Probably the biggest piece of luck was getting a job in a lab after HS that allowed me to work and go to school (part-time, to be sure). Then overhearing two grad students at the lab discussing this strange kind of math I had never heard of before (modern algebra) and falling in love with it, so that I changed majors from chemistry to math. And then being good at it and getting a PhD. Then there was the luck of being born in the depths of the depression when few other people were being born and coming into the job market when the first of boomers were getting to college age and schools were expanding. Then meeting my wife. All luck. Of course, the biggest piece of luck was this sperm here, one of millions, just happened to meet and fuse with that egg there, implant and successfully gestate. That was the most improbable event of all. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-or-my-success-come-from/957946/64 "2022-01-22T19:54:16Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > But everyone I know who has achieved success, whether that’s becoming a corporate executive, starting a business, selling real estate, being a musician, performing on Broadway, athletics, or whatever has done so because they took steps to make that happen. Eh, I’d say there’s a large pool of people who inherited wealth/position and didn’t do anything out of the ordinary to keep it. As far as being a performer, so _much_ is out of your control I’m surprised so many people go for it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-or-my-success-come-from/957946/65 "2022-01-22T20:10:16Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I don’t know. I presume nobody held a gun to your head to work at a company like that. People change jobs or careers. They start their own businesses. They figure out how to work the system to get ahead. Sure some luck is involved. It’s not all luck though. I did leave the bad company, but in Silicon Valley you’re going to have a hard time finding companies that don’t push meritocracy, and some, like Netflix, seem even worse. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-or-my-success-come-from/957946/66 "2022-01-22T20:20:13Z")
I don’t know if I’d say “steps to make it happen” as if they were actually able to _control_ the outcomes. My description would be “made the best of their existing advantages, and positioned themselves to be able to maximize any lucky opportunities / mitigate any unlucky ones.” I mean, a large part of success is due to taking advantage of lucky breaks AND not getting hammered into the dirt by unlucky ones. And those are in large part something you can plan for. For example keeping a couple of months of salary in savings is setting yourself up for success in the event that you lose your job. Similarly, if you want to be financially successful, going to college for a degree in English literature is NOT setting yourself up for that sort of success. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-or-my-success-come-from/957946/67 "2022-01-22T21:08:47Z")
No. Clearly one can’t control the outcome. Success is never guaranteed. It’s really more about pursuing things you want to be successful at and taking steps to get there. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-or-my-success-come-from/957946/68 "2022-01-23T10:46:24Z")
I think my personal success has come mainly from having a low bar of what “success” looks like. My wife and I have been together since teenage years and our joint worldview has helped both of us. 1. We are not financially motivated so “success” by that metric means simply enough money to eat out when we want and holiday where we want and buy whatever we want. That might put a strain on finances of course but luckily we also share point 2. 2. We are neither of us materialistic so “success” in that sphere means simple pleasures not gold-leafed swan canapes, panda-fur mittens and private jets. 3. Career-wise we have valued personal learning and finding the niches we love. Working hard is no chore at all then and we love what we do. A lack of ambition regarding promotions and an aversion to stress and complications has kept us off that treadmill whilst still giving us plenty of disposable income (and disposable time) to spend on the simple pleasures mentioned in point 1. So taking out all of the things you can’t change I think that having a mutually supportive partner, shared goals, realistic expections and making sensible career choices in line with those, that has played the biggest part. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-or-my-success-come-from/957946/69 "2022-01-23T13:25:45Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > No. Clearly one can’t control the outcome. Success is never guaranteed. **It’s really more about pursuing things you want to be successful at and taking steps to get there.** I agree. In addition to things like innate talent (being able to run fast, sing well, understand advanced math, etc.) and having some lucky breaks, it takes effort. That was the point I was trying to make. The flip side is that the ability to exert effort in pursuing ones goals is also, IMHO, a talent of sort. Not everyone has it in them to be a hard worker, and in addition to innate talent and luck, I think being a hard worker is necessary for becoming successful. Starting successful is a different story, and based entirely on luck. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-or-my-success-come-from/957946/70 "2022-01-23T16:25:09Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > But everyone I know who has achieved success, whether that’s becoming a corporate executive, starting a business, selling real estate, being a musician, performing on Broadway, athletics, or whatever has done so because they took steps to make that happen. I see two ways in which one might be interested in the question I posted. One way is “what do I do to succeed”. In this sense, many of the factors we’re discussing are irrelevant because we cannot change them for ourselves, and thinking about them is neutral or even counterproductive. The only things that are relevant are the ones we can control or influence. The “steps to make that happen” fall into this category. But the other way in which one might be interested, the way I’m interested, is seeing and understanding how the system works, for the purpose (at least) of trying to help change the system for the better. I don’t want to reinforce this system by going along with it and buying into it, even though it would be easy and gratifying to because the system has favored me pretty well. I want to turn the system against itself, I want to use the success I enjoy to help dismantle the system. By the way, the two people I’ve know who were the most successful were both heirs. Both were more than 100 times as wealthy as I (and I’m a fairly successful technical professional who is now set for retirement). Both enjoyed a great deal of power and privilege and prestige in the corporate world. Both were loud proponents of the myth of meritocracy and both promoted self-determination. There’s a nice way I heard of to judge the merit of a society: the best society is the one a person would choose, hypothetically, to be born into – but under the condition that the person doesn’t know who they’re going to be born as. Maybe a wealthy heir, but, maybe a disabled and abused person in a poor authoritarian country. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-or-my-success-come-from/957946/71 "2022-02-02T19:08:01Z")
I don’t think I’m a success. But then I don’t think I’m a failure either. Just a mediocrity, like most of the population. Being a mediocrity can be even more depressing than being a failure. At least, being a failure has some turbulent angst and drama. Mediocrity is just dull. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-or-my-success-come-from/957946/72 "2022-02-02T19:21:04Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Being a mediocrity can be even more depressing than being a failure. I dunno, it kinda works for me 🙂. It speaks to my congenital lack of ambition I suppose (and my mild contempt for the nakedly ambitious), but I find myself pretty content with being a functional societal cog. I don’t work all that hard, but I’m competent and very modestly respected at my job. I’m not wealthy, but I’m financially stable and can purchase small things without worrying about cost. I don’t stress much. I enjoy puttering about with assorted little distractions (of which this board is one). In a very relative sense, life is good. I’ve never really had much envy of those who have accomplished far more at a younger age than me. It would have been the absolute best if I had been born an idle trust-fund baby who could float through life as a happy parasite 😉. But (semi-)functional societal cog is good enough for government work. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-or-my-success-come-from/957946/73 "2022-02-02T20:04:43Z")
That was the most interesting answer for me so far. Would you care to elaborate? Why do you consider yourself a failure? I don’t believe I am a failure because I like it the way it is\*. I would not change me for another person I know. Would you like to be someone else? Should the answer be yes, let me point out that in this case you would no longer be _you_. What could be worse that that? \* In my tiny little bubble, I am aware that in general this world sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-or-my-success-come-from/957946/74 "2022-02-03T19:40:33Z")
The median income per day for all humans was $6.68 in 2017. Financial success is certainly not the only kind of success that matters, but it’s the easiest to quantify statistics for online. I bet most of us are wildly, fantastically, profoundly successful when comparing ourselves to everyone else, meaning all human beings. ---
**Author:** ![yarblek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/71e660/32.png) [@yarblek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yarblek)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2022, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-or-my-success-come-from/957946/75 "2022-02-04T03:46:27Z")
I’ve been a university student for way too long with little to show for it. No job, friends, spouse or hobbies outside of the typical yet unproductive things that people do on the computer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-or-my-success-come-from/957946.md?page=3)