# Where has all the spelling gone? Long time passing.... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 19, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614 "2005-05-19T18:46:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/121 "2005-05-20T22:37:33Z")
P.S. **askeptic** , you are the “lest” of my problems. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/122 "2005-05-21T00:29:02Z")
**askeptic** , sorry it took so long to answer - I was playing Scrabble with my neighbor (7th grader, first time playing, slum neighborhood with very poor schools, I only helped him out a little, and he scored 231! I’m very impressed!). You’re a heck of a lot more of a Latin scholar than I am. Thanks for your straight answer - I’m inclined to agree. Unfortunately, I don’t have the remotest recollection of how to construct a hortative from a root. Yeah, well, this is likely to degrade my quality of life… **Loopy** and **scott** , as I said, I don’t count spelling errors nearly as much as grammatical errors, and things like repeated words or sentences that get lost in the middle usually are pretty obviously interrupted posts or typos. I’m not a fanatic about this stuff; it’s obvious ignorance that puts me off, not the kind of mistakes that any rapid or busy typist can make. But I will point out that if you really want to make an important and convincing point, double-checking your spelling and especially grammar and punctuation will help you. People make judgments on such things without consciously realizing it. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/123 "2005-05-21T00:31:15Z")
> [@Oy!](#): > > **Loopy** and **scott** , . . . > > . . . But I will point out that if you really want to make an important and convincing point, double-checking your spelling and especially grammar and punctuation will help you. People make judgments on such things without consciously realizing it. And I’m bitten in the ass by my own poor coding. I’m slinking away for the night. ---
**Author:** ![Feydeau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df788c/32.png) [@Feydeau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feydeau)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/124 "2005-05-21T00:32:19Z")
> [@Oy!](#): > > **Loopy** and **scott** , as I said, I don’t count spelling errors nearly as much as grammatical errors, and things like repeated words or sentences that get lost in the middle usually are pretty obviously interrupted posts or typos. I’m not a fanatic about this stuff; it’s obvious ignorance that puts me off, not the kind of mistakes that any rapid or busy typist can make. But I will point out that if you really want to make an important and convincing point, double-checking your spelling and especially grammar and punctuation will help you. People make judgments on such things without consciously realizing it. What he said. (Which is essentially what I said in the OP, albeit perhaps not as clearly.) ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/125 "2005-05-21T00:44:40Z")
> [@Feydeau](#): > > What he said. (Which is essentially what I said in the OP, albeit perhaps not as clearly.) No it isn’t. **oy!** said it with class. Yours was just boorish. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/126 "2005-05-21T10:31:57Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > No it isn’t. **oy!** said it with class. Yours was just boorish. Aw, you’re just saying that because I said you were ‘way cool.’ Seriously, I didn’t find **Feydeau** ’s OP to be boorish. It was a rant in the Pit. It’s not supposed to be hearts and flowers. Of course, he (I assume - _I_, OTOH, am a _s_he) was ranting on a topic near and dear to my heart, which helps my view of his (or possibly her?) posting style. **Feydeau** , this is the only message board on which I’ve ever spent time, so I’m no expert here, but from the early posts we’ve gotten from some of the guests and very new members, and the responses those posts have elicited, I’d guess that the standard of spelling, punctuation, and grammar here on this board is considerably higher than that of the usual message board. And despite the occasional accusation of ‘Spelling Nazi’ that you see here, the fact is, most people in this and the many similar threads that have gone before have maintained a high standard and taken it in good fun, gleefully pointing out the errors that have preceded them. I’d say count your blessings at this point! ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/127 "2005-05-21T17:03:37Z")
> [@Feydeau](#): > > So, you’d rather be viewed as less than intelligent? Seeing a connection between spelling and intelligence is not very intelligent, so no, I don’t really care too much. I’ve been quite successful in life, even after failing every spelling quiz in elementary school. “Proper” spelling is a rather recent invention. It’s an **artificial** construction imposed upon the language by a few people with good intentions. I’m sorry that your reading skills have not yet reached a level at which you can handle subtle variations in spelling. Perhaps, with practice, you’ll get better at reading. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/128 "2005-05-21T18:15:55Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > “Proper” spelling is a rather recent invention. It’s an **artificial** construction imposed upon the language by a few people with good intentions. But writing itself is an artificial construction, and is constantly being refined to work better. I agree entirely that the ability to spell correctly does not reflect intelligence, but it does affect communication. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/129 "2005-05-22T15:19:44Z")
I re-upped just for a chance to explain this… Okay, people, the quote (from Heinlein, who probably stole it from someone else; it storngly resembles a line from one of Catullus’ poems) is: “Dum vivimus, vivamus!” Dum-while vivimus- we live vivamus- let us live, hortatory subjunctive While we live, let us _live_! ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/130 "2005-05-23T00:21:02Z")
**dwalin** , I’m delighted you re-upped. And a little puzzled, as I had already translated and broken down the sentence in post #106, although I described the second clause as subjunctive rather than hortatory subjunctive (and wondered if it ought not be hortatory). But what is surprising is that apparently “dum” was not used in isolation in normal Latin - it was a suffix meaning “while” or “for the time being.” It sounds like you know your Latin quite well. Do you know of other instances in which Dum was used as a word rather than a sentence? As I mentioned earlier, it’s been thirty years since my Latin days, and I can’t remember (assuming I ever knew). Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![davmilasav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@davmilasav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davmilasav)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/131 "2005-05-23T02:29:24Z")
> [@unclviny](#): > > “me spel gooder now cuz i be a dohper”. > Unclviny Shouldn’t that be “D’oh!- per”? ---
**Author:** ![Feydeau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df788c/32.png) [@Feydeau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feydeau)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/132 "2005-05-23T03:21:09Z")
> [@Oy!](#): > > Aw, you’re just saying that because I said you were ‘way cool.’ > > Seriously, I didn’t find **Feydeau** ’s OP to be boorish. It was a rant in the Pit. It’s not supposed to be hearts and flowers. Of course, he (I assume - _I_, OTOH, am a _s_he) was ranting on a topic near and dear to my heart, which helps my view of his (or possibly her?) posting style. > > **Feydeau** , this is the only message board on which I’ve ever spent time, so I’m no expert here, but from the early posts we’ve gotten from some of the guests and very new members, and the responses those posts have elicited, I’d guess that the standard of spelling, punctuation, and grammar here on this board is considerably higher than that of the usual message board. And despite the occasional accusation of ‘Spelling Nazi’ that you see here, the fact is, most people in this and the many similar threads that have gone before have maintained a high standard and taken it in good fun, gleefully pointing out the errors that have preceded them. I’d say count your blessings at this point! Thank you for not finding my OP boorish. And I am a he. Sorry for the inadvertent gender-reassignment. And yes, for all who’ve mentioned it, I’ve spent (blessedly little) time on other message boards, and yes, this one is head and shoulders above the rest. Sometimes it just gets to me, and I had to go off. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Tiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Mama\_Tiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Tiger)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/133 "2005-05-23T04:39:36Z")
There’s really a grammatical term known as “hortatory”? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/134 "2005-05-23T06:01:26Z")
[Ta-daaaaaa!](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hortatory) ---
**Author:** ![inkleberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f17d59/32.png) [@inkleberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inkleberry)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/135 "2005-05-23T07:08:21Z")
In a related rant, I wish to bite people who are hopping on the l33t wagon. English was not meant for this sort of abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/136 "2005-05-24T01:22:43Z")
> [@Mama Tiger](#): > > There’s really a grammatical term known as “hortatory”? Yes, although it’s not really used in English. For the record, here are all the different kinds of subjunctives I can think of: hortatory, deliberative, jussive, potential, volitive, and I think a few others. > [@Oy!](#): > > But what is surprising is that apparently “dum” was not used in isolation in normal Latin - it was a suffix meaning “while” or “for the time being.” Sorry, but I’m going to have to contradict you on this one: in all the reading I’ve done from Cicero, Horace, Pliny, Caesar, Eutropius, Trajan, Ovid, Catullus, and Vergil, the only word I’ve ever seen that had ‘dum’ on the end was ‘nondum’, which meant ‘not while’, and I almost never saw that, either. (And believe me, given their various writing styles, at least one of them should have used another -dum if one existed!) ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/137 "2005-05-24T09:54:59Z")
> [@dwalin](#): > > Yes, although it’s not really used in English. For the record, here are all the different kinds of subjunctives I can think of: hortatory, deliberative, jussive, potential, volitive, and I think a few others. > > Sorry, but I’m going to have to contradict you on this one: in all the reading I’ve done from Cicero, Horace, Pliny, Caesar, Eutropius, Trajan, Ovid, Catullus, and Vergil, the only word I’ve ever seen that had ‘dum’ on the end was ‘nondum’, which meant ‘not while’, and I almost never saw that, either. (And believe me, given their various writing styles, at least one of them should have used another -dum if one existed!) Thank you - Heinlein can climb pack on his linguistic pedastal! ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/138 "2005-05-24T13:36:36Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > What is renspeak? _STEEMpy!!! You EEEEEdiot!!!_ ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/139 "2005-05-24T14:03:16Z")
All kidding and latin aside. The reason I find complaints about spelling annoying is that we never know the circumstances of the bad speller in question. Maybe english is a second language, maybe the person is learning disabled, maybe the person suffers some anomolous aphasia, maybe they are brilliant but not particularly concerned about precise spelling. Who the hell knows. Personally, I have a dream that someday posters will be judged by the content of their posts rather than the correctness of their spelling (Sorry MLK) Take Mhendo, the guy for some reason refuses to capitalise I. Yea, it gets kind of annoying but what he has to say overrides that little idiosyncracy. Another issue is the lack of coherent spelling rules. Isn’t (I actually almost typed issant instead of isn’t) it weird that I comes before E except after C, except when it doesn’t like in the word weird. I am not above teasing a fellow doper about individual spelling gaffes, when relavent (RogerThornhill-“Bug supporter of Bush”) or when funny. But to criticize spelling generally, especially on this board, is a bit boorish. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614/140 "2005-05-24T16:40:07Z")
> [@Oy!](#): > > Aw, you’re just saying that because I said you were ‘way cool.’ Probably. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-spelling-gone-long-time-passing/304614.md?page=8)