# Where has all the understanding gone? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-understanding-gone/235453 "2004-03-20T20:55:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-understanding-gone/235453/41 "2004-03-21T14:44:43Z")
ehhh, 5 bucks a year. 5. Some will leave. I guess the SDMB is not worth it for them. O.K. 5 bucks. It sure is worth it to me. And not just for fun. This is the only place that you can get real, well thought out answers to questions in minutes. 5 bucks. I can’t beleive anyone that can afford an internet connection can’t pay 5 bucks. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-understanding-gone/235453/42 "2004-03-21T14:52:21Z")
> [@wolfstu](#): > > Here’s something that annoys me: The apparent inability of some of us to recognize that, yes, there might just be stituations in which someone can get to the boards, but can’t afford to pay for them. …wolfstu then describes personal poverty situation… > [@wolfstu](#): > > Yeah, most people can afford $4.95. But there are a very few who really can’t. Really. **So please, no more generalizations about how everybody can.** > > I still don’t have much money, but I figure I can pay for three of you, at five bucks each. Bolding mine. **wolfstu** , didn’t you just prove the point of the argument that you were refuting? If I understand it correctly, you are in a poverty situation while you attend school. And still you realize that you can scrape together enough cash for _ **three** _ time the amount needed? Bubba ---
**Author:** ![CheekyMonkey613](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e480ec/32.png) [@CheekyMonkey613](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheekyMonkey613)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-understanding-gone/235453/43 "2004-03-21T14:59:33Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > **wolfstu** , didn’t you just prove the point of the argument that you were refuting? If I understand it correctly, you are in a poverty situation while you attend school. And still you realize that you can scrape together enough cash for _ **three** _ time the amount needed? Bubba You misunderstood. > [@wolfstu](#): > > Let me describe my situation in fine detail. Not my situation as it is now, for it’s improved somewhat, but my situation, say, a year and a half ago. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-understanding-gone/235453/44 "2004-03-21T15:05:23Z")
And the reason **wolfstu** isn’t working while going to school, or getting financial aid, or scholarships, or food stamps or other government assistance? So I guess “get a job” still applies… And as far as what I consider “debate-worthy” goes, I guess the first thing I’d consider is whether a debate has the faintest hope of changing the situation. Since all the debate in the world isn’t going to make the subscription fees go away, what’s the point? Someone bitches about the fee, someone else justifies it, and the end result is…there’s a fee. And as for the goodbye threads, whatever reason you have for leaving, it all boils down to the same underlying reason in the end; you aren’t going to pay the fee. So, just like there’s (supposedly) one Pit thread where all complaints about the subscription fees are supposed to go and others are getting locked (although there seems to be some laxity there), set up one thread for goodbyes and one for “I’m staying” and lock all the rest. ---
**Author:** ![moejuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@moejuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejuck)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-understanding-gone/235453/45 "2004-03-21T16:26:59Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > And the reason **wolfstu** isn’t working while going to school, or getting financial aid, or scholarships, or food stamps or other government assistance? > > So I guess “get a job” still applies… > > And as far as what I consider “debate-worthy” goes, I guess the first thing I’d consider is whether a debate has the faintest hope of changing the situation. Since all the debate in the world isn’t going to make the subscription fees go away, what’s the point? Someone bitches about the fee, someone else justifies it, and the end result is…there’s a fee. And as for the goodbye threads, whatever reason you have for leaving, it all boils down to the same underlying reason in the end; you aren’t going to pay the fee. So, just like there’s (supposedly) one Pit thread where all complaints about the subscription fees are supposed to go and others are getting locked (although there seems to be some laxity there), set up one thread for goodbyes and one for “I’m staying” and lock all the rest. First of all, wolfstu said he had a job as a reservist. He also stated that he could not schedule another job becuase of wanting to concentrate on his studies. So, according to your “debate-worthy” criteria, all of the threads in Great Debates should probably closed, or locked into one conveniently located thread. As I have posted to you before, I did start a consolidated thread for goodbyes. I don’t know why it makes so much difference to you anyway. I don’t see the problem with having several goodbye threads. I know it would take a ton of effort for you to have to pull down your mouse to scroll past them, but I have a feeling you will survive. Beware the Carpal Tunnel! ---
**Author:** ![moejuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@moejuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejuck)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-understanding-gone/235453/46 "2004-03-21T16:28:21Z")
> [@El Cid Viscoso](#): > > **wolfstu** , thank you for that beautiful, insightful post. > . I would post a reply agreeing with you **El Cid** , but I think all thank you posts are supposed to be consolidated into one post only. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-understanding-gone/235453/47 "2004-03-21T17:21:17Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > And the reason **wolfstu** isn’t working while going to school, or getting financial aid, or scholarships, or food stamps or other government assistance? > > So I guess “get a job” still applies… **Job** > [@wolfstu](#): > > Get a job? I already had one (military reserve). And I couldn’t fit a second one in around my studies. I had classes scheduled such that it would have been pretty hard to fit a most jobs around them. And the reserve thing took up a lot of time. I didn’t think I could fit a second job in, though I did look for one. But if I worked so much that my marks dipped and I lost my renewable scholarship from the school, I would have been _much_ worse off. **Financial aid** > [@wolfstu](#): > > I was nonetheless unable to get the standard student loans. My father worked so much overtime the fiscal year beforehand that he pushed us just into the next tax bracket. As a result, the potential loans I’d applied for fell through. There isn’t a food stamp program where I live. I wasn’t going to go down the street to the Mission for Men; I was unbelievably weathly compared to the people it’s meant to serve: I had a roof, food, and schooling. **Scholarships** > [@wolfstu](#): > > I could only do this because I got a generous scholarship from the civilian school I also got a scholarship from the company my dad works for. I was turned down a lot of ‘merit-based’ scholarships because I had no extracurricular ‘volunteer’ work, because I’d spent high school trying to save up money for university, and because what I did do in my free time (a government youth group called Air Cadets) wasn’t seen as valuable enough, volunteer-wise. (I figured it was, but I don’t hand out the money. And it was too late to change high school.) **Government assitance** I didn’t qualify as poor, in the government’s eyes, because of the bracket-jump from my dad working so much overtime. I couldn’t get a lot of the social assistance that might have been available if I were unemployed (I had a job, remember), or disabled, or had a child or a spouse or someone to support. And the government already heavily subsidises the tuition in my program directly; but it still costs thousands of dollars a year to go to school. I _had_ turned-down a fully-funded undergraduate degree paid by the Queen, because I didn’t want to lock myself into twelve years in the military. But I was making it (barely) on my own. And when the board suddenly goes subscription, it’s a little late to call up the recruiting office and say ‘Will you still take me? I wanna pay for this internet thing…’ So, once again, sometimes when people say they can’t pay, they mean it. I had no money to spare. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-understanding-gone/235453/48 "2004-03-21T17:58:32Z")
Perhaps “military reserve” works differently where you are. “Military reserve” where I am means, what, one weekend a month and two weeks in the summer, if I remember the ads correctly. If you’re planning your meals so that you go to bed every night hungry, then maybe it’s time to rethink how you’re spending your time. If you literally are living so close to the edge that $5 a year will push you over it, then you’re doing something wrong. ---
**Author:** ![CheekyMonkey613](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e480ec/32.png) [@CheekyMonkey613](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheekyMonkey613)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-understanding-gone/235453/49 "2004-03-21T18:42:18Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > If you literally are living so close to the edge that $5 a year will push you over it, then you’re doing something wrong. Yeah **Wolfstu**!!! WTF are you thinking??? “Going to school” ~ fucking idiot! Just QUIT school! Get a low-paying job. Ok, you’ll be broke for years to come. But chances are, you’ll be unemployed AFTER you graduate anyway. PLUS, you’d be able to afford the SDMB (which is really all the education you need anyway). Just put “Straight Dope Message Board Member Since ----” on your resumé. Who the hell told you to be so optimistic about your future? Damn students. :mad: And while you’re at it, why the hell would you want to sign up for the military reserve? What country needs military anyway?\* Certainly not the States. Damn fool. _OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHhhh!_ You _have_ a job now? So sorry. You can afford to sponsor 3 Dopers? Oopsie on me! ☹ Edjucashion you say? Hmmm… \*If Airman sees this, I’m toast. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-understanding-gone/235453/50 "2004-03-21T19:28:54Z")
Did I say “quit school”? \ Why no, I didn’t! What I said was that living so close to the edge that being unable to figure out a way to shift around five dollars over a twelve-month period is shitty life planning. I’ll go one further. If you can’t figure out a way to shift less than two dollars out of your food budget for a bus ticket to go home and get fed for free on Thanksgiving, then your life is a fucking mess. ---
**Author:** ![moejuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@moejuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejuck)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-understanding-gone/235453/51 "2004-03-21T20:09:17Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Did I say “quit school”? \ Why no, I didn’t! What I said was that living so close to the edge that being unable to figure out a way to shift around five dollars over a twelve-month period is shitty life planning. I’ll go one further. If you can’t figure out a way to shift less than two dollars out of your food budget for a bus ticket to go home and get fed for free on Thanksgiving, then your life is a fucking mess. You my friend have helped to confirm that many people in this place really have a very high opinion of themselves, and not much respect for others. It is sad to see such an arrogant and uncaring attitude. I have no idea why you think you have any right to question his choice to spend almost all of his money on education. His budget is extremely tight because he is trying to get a degree. Do you know how many hours he is taking? Do you know what his major is? If he is swamped with school work, then he obviously would be better off working on his studies so he can stay in school, and go without more food, or…gasp…even the SDMB. I applaud you **wolfstu** , stick with it! Your choices now will pay off down the road. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-understanding-gone/235453/52 "2004-03-21T20:16:54Z")
While I don’t know about wolfstu’s specific situation, I’ll have to agree with Otto in that it would be rather rare to have a stable living situation where $5 pushes you over the edge of your expenses. I won’t say it will never happen, but not enough to justify the outrage that some folks have at the moment. And, certainly, if your studies are pushing you that close to the edge, then I can imagine that you could just be a lurker and still use the SDMB for free entertainment? Let’s not forget, it’s not pay to read, it’s pay to post. Those few cases could certainly be taken care of by the donors offering their help in ATMB. Heck, I’d even help out if asked. ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-understanding-gone/235453/53 "2004-03-21T21:50:36Z")
> [@moejuck](#): > > His budget is extremely tight because he is trying to get a degree. Do you know how many hours he is taking? Do you know what his major is? If he is swamped with school work, then he obviously would be better off working on his studies so he can stay in school, and go without more food, or…gasp…even the SDMB. Thank you. For those who want to argue that my financial situation was due to poor planning, remember: the point here is not whether we’ve all made wise financial decisions in our past, the point is whether we can all afford to spend five bucks on the Board. At the time, I _could not_ have done so. At the end of the year, I might have come out ahead by five or fifty dollars, but near the beginning of the year, I could have no confidence in that. Over the course of a year, that’s too slim a margin to be able to start justifying entertainment expenses. I seriously was at the point that every cent counted. (Now, if you want, we can start a hijack in which I’ll attempt to show you even more specific and personal details of how I got into this situation, and why I felt it was worth it to live extremely sparely to avoid military college but still get a degree. I don’t think that should be necessary, though.) **fluiddruid** , you’re right. It’s unusual. And ‘become a lurker’ is exactly what I would have done. I’m not arguing that the board should remain free out of some idea that it needs to be universally accessible to everyone. Rather, I’m arguing that there really are some people who would not be able to pay the five bucks. Some have declared that this is never the case; that this generalization is false is all I’m demonstrating. And you’re right, the donors help solve these cases. Which is why I’m a donor, now that I’m confident I can spare twenty bucks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-all-the-understanding-gone/235453.md?page=2)