# Where has the intelligent conversation gone? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 28, 2002, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400 "2002-12-28T20:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/21 "2002-12-30T22:18:14Z")
If you want to have heavier intelligent conversation, you could try General Questions, or Great Debates, where the sex content is a lot lower. But, like it or not, sex is an important topic to humans. Left to their own devices without the regulation of the public media, people think about and talk about sex a lot. That’s just the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/22 "2002-12-30T22:24:40Z")
There are _so_ many different topics broached in the course of a day, week or month on this board and 90-95% + of them have nothing at all to do with sexual flirting or lust oriented topics. That this relative sliver disturbs you so says more about _your_ issues than the purportedly licentious tone of the board. A good many of the “sex threads” on this board are started by _women_ and the (admittedly annoying) flirt threads are sustained by female participation. That you would feel so oppressed by the horseplay and flirting nonsense that you would type this sentiment > [@](#): > > “All that talk does is remind me that all women are vulnerable because of our gender” says more about _your_ “big I” personal Issues than a decline in board tone. Stop living your life in a defensive crouch relative to sexuality and sexual expression, it’s bad for the knees. ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/23 "2002-12-30T22:39:36Z")
I think what you’ve also got to remember is that when you first came to these boards you thought “Wow! A group of intelligent people finally! I have found The One at last!” It was great, you were so happy, you wanted to buy it ice cream and whisper sweet nothings to it. After a year or so, well, you still wanted to buy it ice cream. But not so much of the sweet nothings. There’s only so much you can do that. A year and a half down the line you start noticing things. Just little things. It seems like you’ve heard quite a bit of what’s being said before. You remember that “My pants have exploded” thread the first time round and somehow now, it doesn’t seem so fresh and funny any more. Two years down the line, you’ve been there and done that. You’ve read all the “Best threesome you ever had” threads. It’s the same thing again and again. And now that you’ve seen it all, it’s just not exciting. It seems to be everywhere and you’re fed up with it. You’d rather just have a cup of tea and read a good book. Who wouldn’t? It’s time to make it or break it. Find common interests, find threads that are new and exciting to read. Spend time in unexplored territory. Perhaps you’ve never tried philosophy debates in GD. Or even starting a thread on your favourite book in Cafe Society. You must take the initiative if you want your time on this board to stay fun and interesting. Invest in your board experience, and you’ll discover so much more. It will love you in return. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/24 "2002-12-30T23:52:02Z")
**plain\_jane** , if this bothers you so much, why don’t you try to help increase the amount of intelligent discussion on the board? A quick search showed that you haven’t started a single thread besides this one in the last six months. It would be one thing if you kept trying to start up threads on intelligent topics and they kept getting buried by T&A. I would also be curious as to how you define intelligent discussion, as I’m worried that it might overlap with my definition of “informative but boring” discussion. Some of the most entertaining threads I’ve ever read were filled with sexual innuendo and off-color remarks. The freedom to discuss almost any topic, no matter how random or obnoxious, is what makes this place amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/25 "2002-12-31T00:21:47Z")
Well, excuse the **fuck** out of us! Geez, all that time I spent discussing economics, politics, history and entertainment is wasted because of some boobs ‘n’ butts threads? I feel like starting an intelligent bondage thread just to annoy the OP. So, any thoughts on leather tensile strength? Can someone recommend a good leash oil? Which brand of handcuffs are the most durable? ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/26 "2002-12-31T10:56:53Z")
Without commenting on the OP itself - which I thought actually had some interesting and well-made points and does not deserve the dismissal out of hand that some of the more blinkered posters are giving it - I _really_ want to say that I just _loved_ **Fran’s** post. Particularly the tea-and-good-book line. Sublime! pan ---
**Author:** ![Flutterby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Flutterby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flutterby)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/27 "2002-12-31T12:24:27Z")
Oh no! I’ve taken part in the Best Breasts in Hollywood thread! Am I now to be forever shunned for seeing women as beautiful people? For glancing at a playboy? For denigrating my sex!? Oh yes… I am female. I just happen to admire other female’s attributes upon occasion and find it interesting to see what others think, male and female. I avoid any that seem they might be offensive, or get out if it gets too much. It happens, and sometimes we can have intelligent discussions on things like sex and sometimes it’s just for fun/interest. They’ll always be around, we just have to learn to live with them or ignore them or even blast them as our perogative takes us. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/28 "2002-12-31T14:38:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kabbes \* > **Without commenting on the OP itself - which I thought actually had some interesting and well-made points and does not deserve the dismissal out of hand that some of the more blinkered posters are giving it - I _really_ want to say that I just _loved_ Fran’s post. Particularly the tea-and-good-book line. Sublime!** Absolutely agreed (and I don’t even like post-count-padding). ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/29 "2002-12-31T17:11:14Z")
Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/30 "2002-12-31T20:09:28Z")
> [@](#): > > A quick search showed that you haven’t started a single thread besides this one in the last six months. Well, in fairness, not everyone has a thread-starting personality. I suspect that Cecil is the only veteran poster who has started fewer threads than I have (and my OP/post ratio is a lot lower than his). ---
**Author:** ![Chanticleer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/65b543/32.png) [@Chanticleer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chanticleer)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/31 "2002-12-31T20:10:09Z")
**plain\_jane** , Now let me see if I have this straight… We shouldn’t have too many discussions about sex if **you** think it is excessive. And **you** get to decide, as **you** already have, that we do it too much. And that instead of **you** cruising right on through the threads **you** don’t want to read, we should all instead alter our thoughts and desires as well as the topics of discussion we choose in order not to offend **you** or give the impression that we are wasting our time. Did I get it right or did I not? ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/32 "2002-12-31T20:13:01Z")
Re: the OP (or the Simpsons) what WASN’T better before? ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/33 "2003-01-03T10:43:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Now let me see if I have this straight… > > We shouldn’t have too many discussions about sex if you think it is excessive. And you get to decide, as you already have, that we do it too much. And that instead of you cruising right on through the threads you don’t want to read, we should all instead alter our thoughts and desires as well as the topics of discussion we choose in order not to offend you or give the impression that we are wasting our time. > > Did I get it right or did I not? No - no I don’t think you have it straight in any way, shape or form. I think you have simply demonstrated a complete lack of comprehension or perception, coupled with an inability to pick up on subsequent clues. **Jane** said _quite plainly_ that she wasn’t talking about sex threads. Let me point you to just one place she said this: > [@](#): > > Yes, sex is natural, and should be comparable to threads on natural bodily functions. Indeed, I am not suggesting that talking about sex is wrong. So what’s the complaint here? I’m afraid that the problem goes a little deeper than a little X-rated talk. **Jane’s** issue is all of a one with that great general societal problem: portrayal of women in the media and perception of women in society. See, there is a line between the natural proclivity of each gender towards being attracted to the other (or, indeed, their own) and the reduction of the worth of one gender to being purely based on their looks. When a group of guys get together and feel that they have the right to talk about their female peers purely in terms of their physical attributes, there is a whole host of complex power differentials going on. It is the group dynamic of isolating an individual who is not of that group and making them lesser. Whether this is intended or not (and of course it is virtually never actually intended), this is the effect. The result is that the members of that group go away with that much less respect for the individual under discussion as a _person_ - a person with feelings and with worth way beyond the physical - and with more emphasis on that individual as an object. This is what is meant by objectification. The gathering of males to hoot about women is one of the most unpleasant and deeply damaging effects to society that I can possibly imagine. It is the reason why sexism will always be with us and has a direct impact on the continuation of the glass ceiling and the propogation of the workplace as a boy’s club. Generally, women must either join it, play up to it or be marginalized. It is _institutionalized sexism_ in the same way that the Metropolitan police recently were forced to accept that whatever their individual beliefs were, as a group they were _institutionally racist_. I don’t expect 99% of people reading this to understand it. I know from bitter experience just how blinkered people are when it comes to confronting their own prejudices and - more importantly - the concept that their own apparently innocent behaviour can be harmful. I also know just how plain _stupid_ most people are, incapable of thinking through anything more complicated than where their next biscuit is coming from. If this wasn’t the pit I wouldn’t even bother, since debating this issue just reminds me how frustrating people can be and as such I can’t be bothered to do more than rant about it - as opposed to debate it - any more. But I’m not going to sit around whilst neanderthals completely miss the point and trash **jane** for attempting to make some kind of a stand. Next time you feel attracted to a woman, try coming on the SD and talking about what a conversationalist she is, how she makes you laugh or how smart she is instead. And if that seems completely alien to you, you might just have had an insight into what the problem is. pan ---
**Author:** ![Rogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@Rogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rogg)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/34 "2003-01-03T11:17:20Z")
I’m a man, and I’m with plain\_jane and kabbes. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/35 "2003-01-03T13:55:22Z")
**Kabbes** , I notice how the males around me sometimes gawk at females, even those marginally within our group, and it makes me feel isolated as well, as a male. I do not engage in this behavior, except perhaps with those whom I will never have social contact (i.e. passerby) Even then its only in generalized terms, never drawing attention to a physical feature. However, when someone _appears_ to be painting with too broad a brush, as you were up there, it also makes me feel isolated, and that everyone else is staring at me, pigeonholing me, and afraid of my feral tendencies I dont have. “Why won’t you turn over the tortoise?” I almost always take into account a woman’s personality when it comes to how attracted I am to them , so it would make sense that I factor this in when I internally think about my attraction. However, most guys dont seem to understand (a few might, but I dont try since statistically I am likely to recieve blank stares,) therefore I dont talk about liking women hardly at all. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/36 "2003-01-03T14:15:49Z")
I think at this time I should ask those dopers I know IRL to confirm my status as a male. So don’t think that I’m just some hysterical female (oi! who threw that?!) In all seriousness, these notes are not from one who may be dismissed as simply being bitter about my own treatment. They come from reading, thinking and observing the world about me. And as a male, I’m _glad_ if I make just one other male nervous about the effect they may be unwittingly having on the world. I know the fuck that I am. We are _all_ carrying our own set of prejudices. We are _all_ racist, sexist, _group-X_ist. We can’t help it. We are bombarded daily with images from newspapers, televisions, films. As humans, we see patterns in chaos where no patterns exist. We are exposed to countless conversations and ideas. These all colour us. To not recognise this is to stick our head in the sand. All we can do is _confront_ our prejudice whenever we experience it, question it and rise above it. **Ludovic** , you say… > [@](#): > > I do not engage in this behavior, except perhaps with those whom I will never have social contact (i.e. passerby) Even then its only in generalized terms, never drawing attention to a physical feature. …and that is great. But note that you “admit” that you _do_ gawk. Of course you do. So do I. But don’t for a moment think that this has no effect on your environment. And don’t for a moment think that there is no social conditioning involved in your gawking. Every time that we think of _anyone_ in any terms other than as a complete human being, we demean them. And then we carry that reduction of their humanity on to our next interaction. If we’re smart, we can kill its effect at that stage to the best of our ability. If we pretend that there is nothing wrong then we simply propogate the conditioning. > [@](#): > > it also makes me feel isolated, and that everyone else is staring at me, pigeonholing me, and afraid of my feral tendencies… _Good_. Be afraid. I am. Understand what such pigeonholing is like. I try to. > [@](#): > > …I dont have. Ah, but you do. As I say, we all do. You seem like an excellent person, who does his level best to fight them and act like a human rather than an animal. But the moment we think that we have _won_ that fight, we’re in trouble. > [@](#): > > I almost always take into account a woman’s personality when it comes to how attracted I am to them , so it would make sense that I factor this in when I internally think about my attraction. However, most guys dont seem to understand (a few might, but I dont try since statistically I am likely to recieve blank stares,) therefore I dont talk about liking women hardly at all. You sound a lot like me. And as I say, the whole issue so pisses me off with regards to virtually every man I ever talk to that I now restict my thoughts on the matter to rants and outbursts. I’m not going to change several umpteen years worth of social conditioning with a few clever sentences. But if I _can_ make a few people think about the effect they have on others then maybe it isn’t completely in vain. And I’ll back up anyone else - like **jane** - who tries to make the point every time. pan ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/37 "2003-01-03T14:19:49Z")
Oh - I should add one thing. Women can be just as bad - if not worse - at propogating the concept of a woman’s worth being entirely physical as men can. Women out there - next time you start to bad-mouth another woman for the size of her bum or the raise a woman up for the way that she dresses, just spend a moment thinking about these words. And then try talking about her ability to form conceptual links between ideas instead. pan ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/38 "2003-01-03T15:01:57Z")
(For the record: the last time I saw **kabbes** , he was definitely a bloke. And I’d be surprised if there had been any change since.) Hmm. I can see where you and **plain\_jane** are coming from, **kabbes** , but I don’t entirely agree that it’s a problem (or, at least, a serious problem) on this board. People will make superficial judgments, and they will talk about their superficial judgments - there’s no way of stopping them. And our superficial judgments are based on what we can easily see … … which is where, IMO, these message boards have their advantages. In real life, the first thing we see is someone’s physical appearance, so that’s what we comment on. On the boards, physical appearance is not an immediately obvious factor, so we base those superficial judgments on how well our fellow posters express themselves. Paradoxically, perhaps, it’s easier for us to treat each other as complete human beings when our contact is restricted to the electronic medium. Of course, we’ll always get the caveman threads about boobs and willies, but we also get a pretty high level of people respecting each other _as posters_, based on ability to communicate, willingness to express ideas, and originality of thought. I can think of half a dozen posters without effort whom I consider _damn_ sexy, even though I’ve never met them, and have little or no idea what they, physically, look like. (No, I’m not naming any names.) Come to that, I think I benefit from this myself - there are some misguided people round here who seem to think I’m a nice enough guy. I _like_ not being judged on my physical appearance - naturally, since _in propria persona_ I am not exactly the answer to a maiden’s prayer (unless the maiden in question has just fallen out of a fourth-floor window and is praying for something soft to land on). So … I disagree with the OP, to the extent that I still believe there is sufficient mutual respect and intellectual stimulus on this board for me to keep coming back to it. But I do agree that we could do with more of both - both here, and (especially) in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![dwc1970](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a183cd/32.png) [@dwc1970](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dwc1970)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/39 "2003-01-03T15:11:53Z")
The guys I join up with at lunch are terrible when it comes to ogling the women and making sexual remarks right out in the open. They’re otherwise decent, civiized people, but it just bothers me when they have to point out to the rest of the group every woman they deem worthy of demonstrating their sexual prowess upon if they were to have the opportunity. There’s one guy who just isn’t satisfied until he’s seen “the redhead” (whom I personally think isn’t attractive at all). After he’s seen her and says, “there she is!” I just want to say in a sacastic voice, “well, goody-goody, I thought she wasn’t going to show up today!” :rolleyes: It’s not that I’m a prude or anything, I just consider it socially unacceptable to make such remarks. Now, I like to look at the attractive women, too, but I keep my comments and my thoughts to myself. Besides, since I like bigger women than most other guys the people in my group would likely not agree with my choices anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400/40 "2003-01-03T15:40:12Z")
I dont gawk when I’m in a group; I dont want women to be self-conscious. **Kabbes** , I understand what you MEAN by claiming we are all sexist and racist, but I think that cheapens the term. Popular definition of an “ism”: Belief that a certain group is inherently better than another.\* Your definition of an “ism”: thoughts that discriminate one group from another. If I were to agree with you on YOUR definition, someone else could go along and say “Hey, you’re sexist, so you must believe that women should be barefoot and pregnant” 😕 \*I was going to add “and or actions designed to keep one groups power over another’s,” but i dont think that accurately defines a prejudicial “ism”, either. For instance, if you were a member of an ethnic gang, you might have a goal of eliminating all of another ethnic group (not saying this is the case, just an example), but your actions just MIGHT not be based on a prejudice, just a desire to have your ethnic group triumph. In other words, you dont think they are worse, you just want to win. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-has-the-intelligent-conversation-gone/145400.md?page=3)