# Where in the Bible does it mention a geocentric universe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 16, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802 "2003-10-16T16:22:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![guitarmax\_99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f19dbf/32.png) [@guitarmax\_99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guitarmax_99)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/1 "2003-10-16T16:22:04Z")
I recently read an interesting book on the history of astronomy in which much was said of Copernicus’ “heretical” contention that the universe was not geocentric. Later it went on to describe the famous incident in which Gallileo was coerced by threat of torture to recant his “heretical” argument for a heliocentric model of the universe. So yesterday I was discussing this book with a friend of mine (who happens to be Christian) and he contends that there is no mention of the geocentric universe in the Bible. Instead, he insists that these theologins of the day just “made it up.” I find this contention a bit hard to believe, but at the moment I don’t have the time to read the entire Bible in order to find out if there is a mention of a geocentric universe. So I thought I’d see if there were any Biblical scholars amongst the teeming millions who would be able to give me some imput as to where the idea geocentrism in early Christian dogma came from. Is it in the Bible? If so, where? Is it in another one of the holy books that I’m unfamiliar with? You would think that something these early theologins took so seriously (seriously enough to burn Friar Bruno at the stake and potentially torture Gallileo) would be written down somewhere. So where is it? ---
**Author:** ![Opengrave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/919ad9/32.png) [@Opengrave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opengrave)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/2 "2003-10-16T16:28:50Z")
I don’t think there is anything in the bible that says the earth is the center of the universe. There is also no mention of extra-terrestrial beings so space ships and aliens wouldn’t be in conflict with the bible. Remember in those days heresy was ‘anything we don’t like or agree with’ and often had little to do with biblical truth. ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/3 "2003-10-16T16:32:33Z")
[size=0]Search Method: Google \> [Christian Forums - Geocentric Universe and Evolution](http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://www.christianforums.com/t50921%26mode%3Dlinear&e=912) Last paragraph: > [@](#): > > In addition, scientific foreknowledge could be claimed from Psalm 19:6 if a more literal interpretation was applied in the following way. Astronomers now know that the Sun moves in a gigantic orbit around the center of the Milky Way galaxy; traveling at 600,000 miles an hour it would take the Sun 230 million years to make just one orbit! It also is believed that our galaxy is moving with respect to other galaxies in the Universe. The Sun’s going forth is indeed from one end of the heavens to the other. \*\*In any case, there is no way to substantiate the claims that the Bible teaches geocentricity, or that it promotes any other anti-scientific concept. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![owlofcreamcheese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/97f17d/32.png) [@owlofcreamcheese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlofcreamcheese)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/4 "2003-10-16T16:44:06Z")
genesis talks of things that make the earth sound like the center… but nothing much worse than the way the news paper talks about the sun riseing and the sun setting. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/5 "2003-10-16T16:57:34Z")
The passage that most closely _suggests_ geocentricity is Joshua 10:12-14: > [@](#): > > 12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. > 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? **So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day**. > 14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel. Galileo himself was questioned about this passage. The simplest model implied by this description is a flat earth orbited by a sun and moon, and God stopped the motion of these bodies over that valley. Of course, God could have delayed the rotation of the Earth to achieve the same (or a similar) effect. But that’s the verse that seems to be most closely associated with attempts to find a Biblical justification for geocentricism. The real basis for the geocentric bias of the Medieval Church is, of course, the long-standing cultural preference for it in Western thought. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/6 "2003-10-16T17:20:28Z")
I believe there’s a modern (mid 20th century?) commentary in the Book of Armaments to the effect that on one hand, the descriptions of divine intervention (ie. the Holy Handgrenade) in that book can be adequately explained as miraculous with Earth-Centered Fixed coordinates (where ECF is the scientific assumption, for solving certain problems, equivalent to a geocentric universe), on the other hand the effects of the interventions are consistent with then-current scientific theories in a Sun-Centered Inertial reference frame. Seriously… from a relative point of view, as **paperbackwriter** noted, a flat Earth with a briefly stationary Sun and Moon appears identical to the Earthbound observer as would a heliocentric system with a temporarily relatively stationary Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/7 "2003-10-16T17:32:04Z")
In _Asimov’s Guide to the Bible: The Old Testament_, Asimov has this to say about Joshua 10:12-14: > [@](#): > > The Bible describes this miraculous lengthening of the day to have been carried through for the purpose of allowing the Israelites to complete their victory. Interpreting them literally, men have used these verses twenty-five centuries after the time of Joshua to fight the Copernican theory that the sun stood still and the earth moved about it. After all, if Joshua has to order the sun “stand thou still” it must imply that ordinarily the sun is moving. I also remember his referring at several points to passages that implied the sky was a dome that touched the earth at the four corners. This would also imply a geocentric vision of the earth. ---
**Author:** ![Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/8 "2003-10-16T17:46:19Z")
OK, if I may be permitted a highjack, this gives me an opening to repeat a story I once read about Wittgenstein: He once asked a colleague “Tell me, why do people always say that it was natural for people to believe that the Sun revolves around the Earth?” The colleague replied “Well, obviously, it looks like the Sun goes around the Earth.” Wittgenstein replied: “What would it have looked like if the Earth went around the Sun?” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/9 "2003-10-16T17:50:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Instead, he insists that these theologins of the day just “made it up.” Not really. In Genesis 1, the formation of the cosmos is described as the act of separating “the waters” (a metaphor for chaos, but one which is used later during the Flood story as a description of physical reality). **NIV** : > [@](#): > > 6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning-the second day. **KJV** : > [@](#): > > 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. > 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. > 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. After which, God drew dry land from (or above) the lower waters: **NIV** : > [@](#): > > 9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good. **KJV** : > [@](#): > > 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. > 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. Later, God set the sun, moon, and stars in the heaven(s): **NIV** : > [@](#): > > 14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights-the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. **KJV** : > [@](#): > > 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: > 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. > 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. > 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, > 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. So we have watery chaos that has been divided into two strata, with the heavens/sky below the upper waters and the land thrusting up from the lower waters. When the Israelites encountered the Hellenistic science of Ptolemy, it was no major effort to view his calculations as nothing more than the means to describe the paths of the sun, moon, and stars circling the stationary earth. Even the Greek knowledge of a global, rather than flat, Earth did not do serious violence to the description from Genesis. The concept of the Earth simply was rolled into a ball in which the lower waters were encapsulated. (You can still find a few biblical literalists clinging to the notion that the Flood was powered, in large part, by waters erupting from vaults below the Earth.) There was no need to “make it up” because the understanding of the two descriptions were not in direct conflict. They simply accepted two descriptions as two slightly different perspectives of the same reality. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/10 "2003-10-16T18:29:46Z")
Whatever the Catholic Church might have thought in Copernican times, talk of the sun moving across the sky (or not, as in the case of Joshua) is hardly “proof” that the Bible endorses a geocentric cosmic model. The position of the sun in the sky does in fact change, even if it’s true that it’s the sky rather than the sun that’s moving. Heck, if someone is going to brand as a believer in geocentrism anyone who refers to the movement of the sun across the sky, then that’ll include anyone who uses the terms “sunrise” and “sunset.” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/11 "2003-10-16T19:05:19Z")
I believe there is a verse that speaks of the earth as God’s footstool; the old Tychonian Society used to cite that as proof of the earth’s primacy and fixity. Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/12 "2003-10-16T20:58:22Z")
**cmkeller** , I did not say that the Bible describes a geocentric universe. I said that the Medieval Church used those verses against Copernican arguments generally, and Galileo specifically. Which is, I believe, what the OP was asking for. There are some fundamentalists who still use those verses in the same way today (which is why I used the KJV translation). That does not mean that Joshua _requires_ a geocentric model, as I believe I also pointed out. **Trinopus** , I believe that you are looking for Isaiah 66:1 > [@](#): > > 1 This is what the LORD says: > "Heaven is my throne, > and the earth is my footstool. > Where is the house you will build for me? > Where will my resting place be? I think most authorities in Abrahamic religions accept this verse as metaphorical. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/13 "2003-10-16T21:03:23Z")
Isaiah 66:1, > [@](#): > > This is what the LORD says: > > "Heaven is my throne, > and the earth is my footstool. > Where is the house you will build for me? > Where will my resting place be? But metaphor is nothing new; scripture uses it often. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/14 "2003-10-16T21:14:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rube E. Tewesday \* > Wittgenstein replied: “What would it have looked like if the Earth went around the Sun?” If the Earth were spinning and orbiting we’d fly off. You know, gravity hadn’t been invented yet, and even so, they didn’t have nearly enough physics knowledge to computer tangential acceleration. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/15 "2003-10-16T21:19:37Z")
Replace “tangential acceleration” with what I meant. You know, whatever would make us fly off. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/16 "2003-10-16T21:21:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Heck, if someone is going to brand as a believer in geocentrism anyone who refers to the movement of the sun across the sky, then that’ll include anyone who uses the terms “sunrise” and “sunset.” These are casual phrases which date back to time when people did indeed believe that the Sun went around the Earth. Did the ancient Hebrews believe in a heliocentric system only to have that knowledge be forgotten? Does the Bible anywhere imply knowledge of that most basic piece of cosmology? The difference between stopping the Sun and stoppng the Earth is pretty significant for the Bible’s writers to have glossed over if they truly knew what they were talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/17 "2003-10-16T21:25:45Z")
Replace “tangential acceleration” with what I meant. You know, whatever would make us fly off. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/18 "2003-10-16T22:10:42Z")
> [@](#): > > The difference between stopping the Sun and stoppng the Earth is pretty significant for the Bible’s writers to have glossed over if they truly knew what they were talking about. Not really. The people involved would see/experience the same thing either way. And while the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit, it was written down by human beings. Beings whose knowledge is limited. God wasn’t giving an astronomy lesson, He was demonstrating His power. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/19 "2003-10-16T22:53:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Exapno Mapcase \* > **After all, if Joshua has to order the sun “stand thou still” it must imply that ordinarily the sun is moving.** If this passage is indeed historical fact, then I feel really bad for the ancient Mayans half a world away, who had to endure three straight days of darkness. 😃 Hmm…maybe THAT’S why their civilization collapsed?? ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802/20 "2003-10-16T22:53:29Z")
Wouldn’t you think that this god would have at least let these human beings who were relaying his word be 100% accurate? At least for the time they’re sitting down to write? Just so the rule book would be clear and precise. Ya know? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-mention-a-geocentric-universe/207802.md?page=2)