# Where in the Bible does it say homosexuality is wrong? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786 "2004-02-06T04:07:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/61 "2004-02-09T20:55:50Z")
> [@augusta](#): > > It seems clear that homosexuality is not acceptable in God’s eyes. How can that be misinterpreted or refuted otherwise? Well, but I think “the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death” in that passage refers to “filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, muder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, engenious parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.” If you look at the passage (and the part before you didn’t quote in your message), it’s saying the homosexual feelings the Romans felt were because > [@](#): > > even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they becamefutile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. …For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever Even though the argument is condemnatory of homosexuality, that’s not the purpose of the argument. Paul is saying (in a version of the Stoic argument) that, because people abandoned their natural spiritual desire (the worship of God) in exchange for unnatural spiritual desires (the worship of idols), that led to the abandonment of their natural physical desire (between men and woman) for unnatural physical desire (between people of the same sex). So, he’s not condemning homosexuality as such, he’s condemning idol worship (and saying that worshiping idols makes you gay). ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/62 "2004-02-09T21:36:25Z")
Diogenes the Cynic: > [@](#): > > Tell me, do you think people who engage in homosexual actictivity deserve to die? > > If not, then it’s silly to assume that God would. How, exactly, is this a valid line of reasoning vis a vis sciptural interpretation? Antechinus: > [@](#): > > From Leviticus 21: 17-21 it seems people with disabilities, including blemishes, get a hard time too. From my reading of this they cannot act as priests. What relevance doe sthis have to the homosexuality debate? Nonetheless, while it is true that people from the Priestly clan with those specified disabilities could not perform certain services in the Temple, the Bible clearly says that they were entitled to all the _privileges_ of Priesthood. So exactly what kind of “hard time” are they getting? To all: The “Bible is not blanketly anti-homosexuality” argument seems to center around the notion that the Canaanite religion included homosexual sex with temple prostitutes, and it is therefore only in this context that the Leviticus verses forbid it. I have two questions for those of you who hold by that argument: 1. What evidence is there for homosexual temple prostitution in ancient Canaan? When I google “Cannanite Temple Prostitution” all I get (that seems to be relevant) is the notion that it is inferred from the Leviticus prohibitions. I’m familiar with writings on _Babylonian_ temple prostitution, but that seems to be exclusively heterosexual. 2. The passages in Leviticus contain not only the injunction against homosexuality, but also against various forms of incest, adultery amd bestiality. Do you consider these to also be in the context of ancient Canaanite religious practices? Is sex between a brother and sister, or between a man and his father’s wife (just to name two examples) something that was common amongst ancient Canaanites as temple prostitution, but in the context of a loving relationship would be permitted by the Bible? Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2004, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/63 "2004-02-09T22:05:40Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > 1. What evidence is there for homosexual temple prostitution in ancient Canaan? When I google “Cannanite Temple Prostitution” all I get (that seems to be relevant) is the notion that it is inferred from the Leviticus prohibitions. I’m familiar with writings on _Babylonian_ temple prostitution, but that seems to be exclusively heterosexual. There’s evidence of heterosexual temple prostitution among the Phoenicians, and it’s speculated that worship of the Canaanite goddess Astarte involved ritual sex, but I also would like to see evidence of homosexual ritual prostitution. Considering that ritual sex tends to honor fertility goddesses, homosexual ritual prostitution wouldn’t seem to make sense in that context. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/64 "2004-02-09T22:40:06Z")
I got this in a class on ancient middle-eastern religions and it’s hard to find a direct cite for it, but there are Mesopotamian and Egyptian images associated with Astarte which depict transvestite males in sexually submissive postions. They are called “loyal servants” of the Goddess. There may be textual evidence as well but I don’t know that much about it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/65 "2004-02-09T23:14:18Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It’s still a bible college. The purpose of a seminary is to indoctrinate, not educate. They have no scholarly objectivity. Cite, please. Or simply admit that you have no basis for your assertions, and are resorting to attempts at _ad hominem_ because you have nothing else to offer. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/66 "2004-02-09T23:16:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Cite, please. We have to provide cites for our opinions now? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![augusta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/77aa72/32.png) [@augusta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/augusta)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/67 "2004-02-09T23:26:56Z")
nic nac paddy wack give a dog a bone… ---
**Author:** ![augusta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/77aa72/32.png) [@augusta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/augusta)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/68 "2004-02-09T23:32:22Z")
1 Romans 1:26-29 Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. \*\*Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. \*\* And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, **God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper.** 1Romans 1:32 Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. It’s obvious to me that ‘God’ of the New Testament does not condone homosexuality. Can anyone refute this? -JHC ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/69 "2004-02-10T00:34:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Cite, please. > > Or simply admit that you have no basis for your assertions, and are resorting to attempts at _ad hominem_ because you have nothing else to offer. > > Regards, > Shodan Do you actually know what a Seminary is, **Shodan**? It’s a school which exists specifically to train, priests, ministers, rabbis, etc. It has a _clerical_ purpose. It teaches _doctrine_, i.e. it _indoctrinates_. That’s not a derisive term it’s a factual and descriptive term. Doctrine is not fact. Doctrine is not arrived at through objective research or scholarship. Doctrine does not change. It is simply passed on as is. If you go to a Catholic Seminary you will learn Catholic doctrine. You will learn the Catholic interpretation of Scripture. You will not be formulating new theories. You will not be encouraged to improvise new liturgical rites or apply a scientific, empirical standard to Biblical criticism. I was stating a fact, not an opinion. Seminaries are NOT objective. They are not searching for new truths, they are passing down dogma. If the position of a given Church is that homosexuality is a “sin,” then that is what the seminary will teach and that is _all_ the seminary will teach. They are not universities they are clergy-factories. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/70 "2004-02-10T00:37:14Z")
> [@augusta](#): > > 1 Romans 1:26-29 > Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. \*\*Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. \*\* And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, **God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper.** > 1Romans 1:32 > Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. > > It’s obvious to me that ‘God’ of the New Testament does not condone homosexuality. Can anyone refute this? > > -JHC Is that the best you can do for a cite? That one’s already been refuted. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![augusta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/77aa72/32.png) [@augusta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/augusta)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/71 "2004-02-10T02:20:56Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Is that the best you can do for a cite? That one’s already been refuted. Try again. “cynic”, yea thats the best i can do for a “cite”. are you gay, man? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/72 "2004-02-10T03:36:43Z")
> [@augusta](#): > > “cynic”, yea thats the best i can do for a “cite”. > > are you gay, man? Nope. Straight as an arrow. Been with my wife for 14 years and have one kid. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/73 "2004-02-10T03:56:02Z")
> [@augusta](#): > > It’s obvious to me that ‘God’ of the New Testament does not condone homosexuality. Can anyone refute this? Like I said, it seems in that text, the things that “deserve death” are “gossips and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, engenious parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.” I apologize if I’m telling you something you already know, but, because Paul is making a natural law argument here, and because Stoic conceptions of natural law are so important both in Paul’s writings in Romans, and in the Greco-Roman world of the early empire, I think it’s worth going over. Remember, Seneca, Nero’s advisor, was a pretty famous Stoic, as were the Republican politicians Cato the Younger and Cicero, who were held in high regard at the time. It wasn’t very long before Epictetus would appear on the scene, and raise Stoicism to even higher levels of popularity. So, in looking at this passage, you have to look at Stoic beliefs. Stoicism believed that the universe was inherantly rational, and that everything in the universe abided by natural laws. So, everything in the universe existed for a purpose, and the purpose of everything could be logically determined. Not only did the physical universe obey certain natural, logical laws, but so did the moral universe. There were certain basic moral laws that could be logically derived, also, and the moral man acted in harmony with the laws of the universe. Man did evil, according to the Stoics, when he, either through ignorance or passion, violated the moral law and failed to act in harmony with the laws of the universe. Now, for the Stoics, the natural end of sexuality was reproduction. That was its inherant purpose. The Stoics recognized that sexual activity was also pleasurable, but the Stoics didn’t see any value in pleasure. In fact, the Stoics believed that seeking pleasure was itself immoral. A person shouldn’t do a thing because it brings him pleasure, or causes him to avoid pain. A person should do a thing because it is Right. So, for the Stoics, homosexual sex was a perfect example of a bad act. There was no possibility of reproduction, and it could only be done for pleasure. So, if a person was having homosexual sex, he was perverting the natural end of sexuality to satisfy a lust. So, Paul is using the basic Stoic argument, and he’s applying it to the worship of God. Paul is saying that worshiping God is one of those natural, logical moral laws. He’s saying that it’s obvious that God exists and should be worshiped. However, he’s saying, the Romans are perverting that natural law, because instead of Rightly worshiping God, they’re worshiping idols. So, this perversion of the natural worship of God leads to other perversions of natural ends, and he’s drawing the analogy there to homosexuality. Worse than that, he’s saying, it leads them to become completely mentally disordered…so that they “do what ought not to be done”. They’ve surrendered themselves completely to wickedness. Then, in the next chapter, he goes on to say that because of this, no one has any right to judge someone else as acting immorally, because the person who judges acts as immorally as the person he judges, and that, if God, who has the right to judge, because He’s perfect, chooses to show mercy, then people, who have no right to judge, shouldn’t be stricter in their judgements than God. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/74 "2004-02-10T04:10:29Z")
And, of course, Paul’s general point in the letter to the Romans is that the concept of “natural law” no longer applies. Because of the death of Jesus, Paul says, people aren’t under old moral constraints or the old moral law, be it Stoic natural law, or Jewish divine law. Now, he says, faith in Jesus is enough to free people from sin. ---
**Author:** ![augusta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/77aa72/32.png) [@augusta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/augusta)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/75 "2004-02-10T04:27:30Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Nope. Straight as an arrow. Been with my wife for 14 years and have one kid. atta boy cynic!!! ---
**Author:** ![augusta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/77aa72/32.png) [@augusta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/augusta)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/76 "2004-02-10T04:40:49Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Like I said, it seems in that text, the things that “deserve death” are “gossips and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, engenious parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.” > > I apologize if I’m telling you something you already know, but, because Paul is making a natural law argument here, and because Stoic conceptions of natural law are so important both in Paul’s writings in Romans, and in the Greco-Roman world of the early empire, I think it’s worth going over. Remember, Seneca, Nero’s advisor, was a pretty famous Stoic, as were the Republican politicians Cato the Younger and Cicero, who were held in high regard at the time. It wasn’t very long before Epictetus would appear on the scene, and raise Stoicism to even higher levels of popularity. So, in looking at this passage, you have to look at Stoic beliefs. > > Stoicism believed that the universe was inherantly rational, and that everything in the universe abided by natural laws. So, everything in the universe existed for a purpose, and the purpose of everything could be logically determined. Not only did the physical universe obey certain natural, logical laws, but so did the moral universe. There were certain basic moral laws that could be logically derived, also, and the moral man acted in harmony with the laws of the universe. Man did evil, according to the Stoics, when he, either through ignorance or passion, violated the moral law and failed to act in harmony with the laws of the universe. > > Now, for the Stoics, the natural end of sexuality was reproduction. That was its inherant purpose. The Stoics recognized that sexual activity was also pleasurable, but the Stoics didn’t see any value in pleasure. In fact, the Stoics believed that seeking pleasure was itself immoral. A person shouldn’t do a thing because it brings him pleasure, or causes him to avoid pain. A person should do a thing because it is Right. > > So, for the Stoics, homosexual sex was a perfect example of a bad act. There was no possibility of reproduction, and it could only be done for pleasure. So, if a person was having homosexual sex, he was perverting the natural end of sexuality to satisfy a lust. > > So, Paul is using the basic Stoic argument, and he’s applying it to the worship of God. Paul is saying that worshiping God is one of those natural, logical moral laws. He’s saying that it’s obvious that God exists and should be worshiped. However, he’s saying, the Romans are perverting that natural law, because instead of Rightly worshiping God, they’re worshiping idols. > > So, this perversion of the natural worship of God leads to other perversions of natural ends, and he’s drawing the analogy there to homosexuality. > > Worse than that, he’s saying, it leads them to become completely mentally disordered…so that they “do what ought not to be done”. They’ve surrendered themselves completely to wickedness. > > Then, in the next chapter, he goes on to say that because of this, no one has any right to judge someone else as acting immorally, because the person who judges acts as immorally as the person he judges, and that, if God, who has the right to judge, because He’s perfect, chooses to show mercy, then people, who have no right to judge, shouldn’t be stricter in their judgements than God. It doesn’t take Paul or a “stoic” to show that homosexual behavior is unnatural, because it is. However I have to side with ol’ Paul on this issue. Other than this, I agree with Thomas Paine’s assumption of Paul’s writings which goes like this: “All this [Paul’s writing] is nothing better than the jargon of a conjurer who picks up phrases he does not understand to confound the credulous people who come to have their fortune told.” --Age of Reason ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/77 "2004-02-10T04:58:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > If you go to a Catholic Seminary you will learn Catholic doctrine. You will learn the Catholic interpretation of Scripture. You will not be formulating new theories. You will not be encouraged to improvise new liturgical rites. Gosh, I kinda wish this were true about more Episcopal seminaries. Unfortunately most of them are coming up with new doctrine, theories and liturgy all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/78 "2004-02-10T04:59:27Z")
> [@augusta](#): > > It doesn’t take Paul or a “stoic” to show that homosexual behavior is unnatural, because it is. However I have to side with ol’ Paul on this issue. But, “unnatural” is a Stoic term, meaning “inconsistant with the moral law”. So, it does take a Stoic to say that homosexual behavior is unnatural. And if you agree with Thomas Paine that Paul’s writings are nothing more than nonsensical rantings to trick the gullible, why are you quoting him to suppor your argument? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/79 "2004-02-10T05:11:04Z")
> [@](#): > > atta boy cynic!!! What for? > [@](#): > > It doesn’t take Paul or a “stoic” to show that homosexual behavior is unnatural, because it is. Cite? Also, is it “unnatural” when penguins or bonobos do it? ---
**Author:** ![augusta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/77aa72/32.png) [@augusta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/augusta)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/80 "2004-02-10T05:51:12Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What for? > > I asked if he was gay. He has a wife and a kid. obviously something you’ll never have. > > Cite? > > Also, is it “unnatural” when penguins or bonobos do it? if it’s two males, hell yes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786.md?page=5)