# Where in the Bible does it say homosexuality is wrong? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786 "2004-02-06T04:07:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![augusta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/77aa72/32.png) [@augusta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/augusta)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/81 "2004-02-10T05:57:16Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > But, “unnatural” is a Stoic term, meaning “inconsistant with the moral law”. So, it does take a Stoic to say that homosexual behavior is unnatural. > > And if you agree with Thomas Paine that Paul’s writings are nothing more than nonsensical rantings to trick the gullible, why are you quoting him to suppor your argument? dude, i don’t give a shit what the “stoic” term for “unnatural” is. Natural is consistent with narture. I didn’t have an argument, captain. I answered the question to the thread. don’t waste your time with pointless details, loser. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/82 "2004-02-10T06:12:35Z")
> [@augusta](#): > > if it’s two males, hell yes. What the hell is your definition of “natural?” ---
**Author:** ![augusta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/77aa72/32.png) [@augusta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/augusta)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/83 "2004-02-10T06:32:30Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What the hell is your definition of “natural?” I’m done cynic…y’all win…no big deal…or is it?.. no, it’s not… ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/84 "2004-02-10T10:33:55Z")
Well that was a pathetic piece of sub-humanity. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![MAV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@MAV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MAV)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/85 "2004-02-10T14:21:21Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Like I said, it seems in that text, the things that “deserve death” are “gossips and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, engenious parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.” I won’t argue that this assumption may be true, but how do you get past the verbiage used that it was “shameful” behavior and that they received their “punishment” for their actions? Does this not give a clear implication that the act was unacceptable? ---
**Author:** ![MAV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@MAV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MAV)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/86 "2004-02-10T14:22:39Z")
I’m sorry, the correct quote was “penalty”, not “punishment”. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/87 "2004-02-10T14:37:01Z")
**augusta** : > [@](#): > > I didn’t have an argument, captain. I answered the question to the thread. don’t waste your time with pointless details, loser. [Moderator Hat ON] If you don’t have an argument, perhaps you should not be posting in a debate forum. Also, calling people “loser” is not acceptable in this forum. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/88 "2004-02-10T14:41:15Z")
> [@MAV](#): > > Does this not give a clear implication that the act was unacceptable? For Paul and for the Stoics, I’d say homosexuality was unacceptable, yes. It’s just that that’s not what the beginning of Romans was about…Paul was just taking for granted that homosexuality was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![MAV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@MAV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MAV)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/89 "2004-02-10T15:17:46Z")
Doesn’t that answer the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/90 "2004-02-10T15:29:52Z")
> [@MAV](#): > > Doesn’t that answer the OP? Sort of, even though the Leviticus passage is a more clear example of biblical condemnation of homosexuality. In Romans, Paul sort of takes the wrongness of homosexuality for granted. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/91 "2004-02-10T18:20:17Z")
A couple of qualifications to The Romans pasage which I have read: 1.) Paul was condemning the acts as “shameful” not because there were homosexual, per se, but because they were unloving, hedonistic, selfish, animalistic rather than spiritual. 2.) They were adulterous. Also, I would reiterate that homosexuality was little understood as an orientation and that Paul does not really address the kind of mature, committed same-sex relationships that have become more normative now. And hey, it’s not like Paul was free of cultural prejudice. He also said that womens should be submissive and keep their mouths shut. ---
**Author:** ![augusta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/77aa72/32.png) [@augusta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/augusta)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/92 "2004-02-10T18:45:11Z")
> [@Gaudere](#): > > **augusta** : > [Moderator Hat ON] > > If you don’t have an argument, perhaps you should not be posting in a debate forum. Also, calling people “loser” is not acceptable in this forum. > > [Moderator Hat OFF] cynic, my heart felt apologies go out to you. I didn’t know you were an overly sensitive “intellect”. Man, it sure would be nice to have your debating skills. your smart cynic, your really smart. very intelligent. i bet it’s fun to be you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/93 "2004-02-10T19:11:33Z")
> [@augusta](#): > > cynic, my heart felt apologies go out to you. I didn’t know you were an overly sensitive “intellect”. Man, it sure would be nice to have your debating skills. your smart cynic, your really smart. very intelligent. i bet it’s fun to be you. Why are you addressing this to me? I’m not the guy you called a “loser,” and I’m not the mod who warned you about it. Where do you get this “sensitive” stuff? I’ve got a hide like a buffalo, dude. You’re not going to hurt my feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/94 "2004-02-10T21:33:38Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] A couple of qualifications to The Romans passage which I have read: 1.) Paul was condemning the acts as “shameful” not because there were homosexual, per se, but because they were unloving, hedonistic, selfish, animalistic rather than spiritual. 2.) They were adulterous. [QUOTE] Objection! Assuming facts not in evidence. I don’t see anything in the Romans passage that indicates that Paul specifically referred only to unloving, selfish and/or adulterous acts. What is your source for these qualifications? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/95 "2004-02-10T21:49:39Z")
[QUOTE=Skammer] [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] A couple of qualifications to The Romans passage which I have read: 1.) Paul was condemning the acts as “shameful” not because there were homosexual, per se, but because they were unloving, hedonistic, selfish, animalistic rather than spiritual. 2.) They were adulterous. > [@](#): > > Objection! Assuming facts not in evidence. I don’t see anything in the Romans passage that indicates that Paul specifically referred only to unloving, selfish and/or adulterous acts. What is your source for these qualifications? The interpretation I’m referring to is one that suggests that giving up “natural affections” meant giving up affections for spouses. Most adults would have been married then, especially women. It was just assumed. It went without saying in that time and place. The only person a woman _could_ have “natural” relations with would have been her husband. It’s also pretty obvious that Paul is speaking to hedonistic abandon, not loving relationships, and he’s blaming it on idolotry. I’m not really trying to convince anyone, my only intenet in this thread is to show that other interpretations exist. It’s not universally accepted by Christians _or_ Jews that the Bible condemns all homosexual relationships. The “unnatural” thing is especially strange considering that homosexuality is so _prevalent_ in nature. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/96 "2004-02-10T22:27:50Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The “unnatural” thing is especially strange considering that homosexuality is so _prevalent_ in nature. Yeah, but again, a lot of the time, the Stoics didn’t use “natural” to describe the way the world actually was, but instead the way the world “should” be. So, for the Stoic, at least, something “unnatural” could happen even in the natural world, due to corruption or something. ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/97 "2004-02-10T22:42:28Z")
Some are saying this here, but I don’t think they’re being very concise. I hope that I may do better… It’s not _being_ homosexual that’s prohibited in both the Old and New Testament in the Bible, but rather certain homosexual _acts_ that are prohibited. It’s not being gay that’s the problem; rather, it is acting on the “lusts of the flesh” that’s the problem here, and that’s what is specifically being prohibited. There are a great many passages that address _heterosexual_ acts that are just as prohibited. It is our perception of heterosexuality as “normal” that makes us look at those passages that address heterosexual acts as not prohibiting heterosexuality in general. Did that make sense? Also, concerning Paul’s writings that prohibited certain modes of dress, etc., I can use the epistles to the Corinthians as examples. It must be remembered that Paul was writing to _specific_ church groups with _specific_ “hang-ups.” To the Hebrews, it was their unyielding abidance with Mosaic law; with the Corinthians, it was “carnality” or “lusts of the flesh.” It turns out that the Corinthians had something of a hedonistic lifestyle that they were accustomed to, and Paul was addressing them concerning this. He was basically telling them what they could do to lessen the temptations they were dealing with on a daily basis. In fact, as a matter of perspective, there was an apparently common phrase at the time that was used to describe someone falling into physical depravity - they became “Corinthianized.” (No, I’m not making that up, but I don’t have my reference bible handy - I’m traveling this week - to look up the cite.) Anyway, in 1 Corinthians, Paul lays out all these do’s and don’t’s about dress and actions, etc. Unfortunately, the Corinthians took it a bit too far. He spends a great deal of the first portion of 2 Corinthians basically saying, “Whoa! Beep, beep, back the truck up! You folks have carried it too far and are making it a law that you have to dress and act these ways! You’re turning my first letter into a legal script to follow, like the Hebrews with Mosaic law, and that’s not what Christianity is about!” my $.02 - I hope I made some sense ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/98 "2004-02-10T23:21:04Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > And hey, it’s not like Paul was free of cultural prejudice. He also said that womens should be submissive and keep their mouths shut. While I certainly agree ::cough Greek and Roman practices cough:: that Paul was not the more unbiased reporter in a room featuring him and your average Fox News consultant, I was under the impression that the Greek verb he used that is often mistranslated as “talk” is more aptly translated as “gab/gossip”. This from my parents, one of whom is the oft-cited monk and the other of whom double-majored in Greek and religion:) BtW, **Dirk** : > [@](#): > > It’s not being homosexual that’s prohibited in both the Old and New Testament in the Bible, **but rather certain homosexual acts that are prohibited**. It’s not being gay that’s the problem; rather, **it is acting on the “lusts of the flesh” that’s the problem here, and that’s what is specifically being prohibited**. There are a great many passages that address heterosexual acts that are just as prohibited. It is our perception of heterosexuality as “normal” that makes us look at those passages that address heterosexual acts as not prohibiting heterosexuality in general. I was not under the impression that a decision had been reached on the bolded sections … unless you were presenting it as your opinion of the Bible, not purporting it to be The Last Word:D ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/99 "2004-02-10T23:28:06Z")
DrkGntly: > [@](#): > > It turns out that the Corinthians had something of a hedonistic lifestyle that they were accustomed to I’ve heard they were into leather in a big way. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786/100 "2004-02-11T00:15:04Z")
**iampunha** , Of COURSE it’s The Last Word - I said it! 😃 Anyway, yes, it is my opinion, but I haven’t found anything that indicates definitively otherwise. The whole point of my argument was actually that there are probably just as many prohibitions against certain heterosexual acts, which, taken by themselves, could be seen as a prohibition of heterosexuality, and I don’t see a lot of people arguing that point… …and yes, this would be a hi-jack, but if anyone other than I wanted to tackle it in another thread, I think it would be a lively discussion, primarily that the specific scriptures cited in the NT that condone monogamy actually don’t do any such thing, and that, in fact, polygamy (1 man, multiple wives) was still common and approved of in Paul’s time - and that those self-same scriptures actually are rules for how to handle oneself in ANY marital situation, poly or otherwise…(just a thought) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-homosexuality-is-wrong/227786.md?page=6)