# Where IS Middle Earth? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 5, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785 "2003-09-05T18:27:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/1 "2003-09-05T18:27:26Z")
Or maybe I should ask, “Where am I supposed to **imagine** it is?” Is it on **this** planet in another dimension or on another world? Altogether. 😉 I have tried to determine it from the films and the books, but I must be incredibly dense, 'cause I can’t figure it out. Thanks! Quasi ---
**Author:** ![Yumblie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/76d3ee/32.png) [@Yumblie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yumblie)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/2 "2003-09-05T18:31:08Z")
I think it’s supposed to be England back in the Middle Ages. At the end of LotR, the elves and everything are leaving for “the undying lands,” whatever those are, so the world is inherited by men, leading us to today. It’s supposedly the “forgotten history” of England. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/3 "2003-09-05T19:05:34Z")
**Yumblie** , thanks! I was thinking in that direction, given the fact that wizards were involved (thinking “Druids”), but couldn’t make it work due to the fact that I am also interested in Arthurian legend, which I have always considered more “possible” than LOTR. I wonder if any other readers of **T H White** and **J R R Tolkien** have noticed this about themselves? I enjoy both books and writers immensely, BTW, albeit I am not as much a “student” of these wonderful works as some of y’all. Q ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/4 "2003-09-05T19:37:24Z")
Actually, Middle Earth is not intended to be understood as England or during the Middle Ages. But it is intended to be understood as this planet in the indeterminate distant past. I can probably find a cite, if needed. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/5 "2003-09-05T20:02:05Z")
I was kind of wondering about this, too. Does Middle Earth refer solely to the continent that they’re on? _Are_ there other continents at that point? ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/6 "2003-09-05T20:28:59Z")
If you look at the map of Middle Earth, it looks very similar to Europe. That would make the island of Numenor what was once Atlantis. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/7 "2003-09-05T20:41:25Z")
I’m only a mid-level Tolkien Geek, so I’m sure someone can (and will) correct me on this, but my understanding is that Middle Earth is supposed to be our Earth in pre-historic times, not in the middle ages. Essentially, the civilizations you see in LotR eventually crumble and are completly forgotten long before our recorded history, except for one book that Tolkien “found” and translated. Which is, of course, the Lord of the Rings. ---
**Author:** ![lilbtagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4491bb/32.png) [@lilbtagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lilbtagna)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/8 "2003-09-05T20:55:26Z")
I remember my Medieval English Literature professor saying that Tolkien had possibly created Middle Earth as England’s background and mythology. The Romans, the French, and the Greeks all had very colorful and interesting histories and mythologies, but England was made of many different tribes of people. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/9 "2003-09-05T20:57:47Z")
From a recent related thread [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3905805#post3905805](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3905805#post3905805) : > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Polycarp_ > In Tolkien’s cosmology, it refers to specifically the Northwest of the Old World: northern and western Europe, as they existed prior to landform changes (some of which are detailed in the Silmarillion). > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Triton_ > Tolkien’s interest in ‘Middle Earth’ (and specificially Earendil, one of the stars of the Silmarillion) was apparently sparked by a couplet from Crist by the Anglo-Saxon poet Cynwulf: > > Eala Earendel engla beorhtast > Offer middangeard monnum sended. > > (Hail Earendel, brightest of angels, sent to Men over middle-earth) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/10 "2003-09-06T01:40:34Z")
Well, in JRRT’s early writings (published in HOMES I & II) Avallónë was supposed to be towed back to Middle-Earth where it would become England. It never got fully developed, but there is a definite association of Middle-Earth with western Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/11 "2003-09-06T01:53:26Z")
> [@](#): > > The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/12 "2003-09-06T02:26:53Z")
Metaphorically, Middle Earth is Europe shading off to Africa and Asia, with The Shire as England. Of course, Tolkien also said that nothing in LotR is meant to be read as metaphor. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/13 "2003-09-06T02:31:08Z")
Well, I guess that blows my idea that it is Laurentia before the split, thus explaining the tobacco and potatoes… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/14 "2003-09-06T03:05:14Z")
I always thought it was in the middle of Earth, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/15 "2003-09-06T03:17:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Yumblie, thanks! I was thinking in that direction, given the fact that wizards were involved (thinking “Druids”), but couldn’t make it work due to the fact that I am also interested in Arthurian legend, which I have always considered more “possible” than LOTR. > > I wonder if any other readers of T H White and J R R Tolkien have noticed this about themselves? I enjoy both books and writers immensely, BTW, albeit I am not as much a “student” of these wonderful works as some of y’all. I’ve read and enjoyed LOTR and _The Once and Future King_ (BEFORE Ian McKellen made this _the book_ to read in your prison cell, thankyouverymuch), and I thought both books had a certain feel. It’s tempting to read the LOTR stories as medieval, but that would’ve limited Tolkien’s ability to create something unique, since we do know something about history from that time. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/16 "2003-09-06T05:52:13Z")
There is a book called _The Atlas of Middle-Earth_ – by Karen Wynn Fonstad – who also did atlases for the worlds of Forgotten Realms, The Land (Thomas Covenant), Dragonlance, and Pern. I don’t know if this is all officially approved by the Tolkien estate as being “canon”, but it’s obviously based on the Tolkien works and has maps for just about everything. This includes a section that illustrates how the Earth changes from age to age – and it illustrates how the portion of the map that we know of as “Middle Earth” eventually changes, as continents shift, into the world we know today. Interesting to view. And in this version of it, if I recall correctly, the primary area (Arnor, Eriador, Gondor, etc) becomes Europe. Far Harad and to the south becomes Africa. The eastern lands beyond the Sea of Rhun become Asia. There’s actually another continent that it shows having broken off after the first or second age – to the east of the main continent – this becomes the Americas. (Although I don’t know if there’s any evidence from Tolkien’s works to support that last bit – I would guess that this is more a creation of the atlas author). ---
**Author:** ![Ray\_Walker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ray\_Walker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ray_Walker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/17 "2003-09-06T06:08:20Z")
As others have said, it is our world but in a fictional time. The part of Middle Earth that concerns The Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit is supposedly Europe, with the Shire being modeled after rural England. I guess if you wanted to you could fit associate other parts of Middle Earth with Europe as well, like maybe the Misty Mountains with the Alps. As for other continents, yes there was another continent called Aman, but it was removed from the world long before the events of the Lord of the Rings. Incidentally, that continent is “The Undying Lands”. It’s now in another dimension altogether (easiest way to understand it). Incidentally, we never see a full map of Middle Earth in the books, just the Northwest portion of it. You can tell by looking at the Southern and far Eastern portions of the map that there is quite a bit more land that we don’t see or hear about. We know the names of these lands, Harad and Rhun, but not much more. Most people theorize that Harad is based off of North Africa and Rhun is based off of possibly China. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/18 "2003-09-06T06:29:55Z")
I once heard it the place and time described as “An Imarginary period in Earth’s history” with the middle earth we see in the book being pretty much Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/19 "2003-09-06T19:59:14Z")
…Mostly irrelevant, but an online inventory of the [“secret government warehouse”](http://plaza13.mbn.or.jp/~WareHouse_j/Warehouse.txt) claims to have nasa documents that show that “Middle Earth was Venus.” And indeed, going by [radar topography](http://starryskies.com/solar_system/venus/surface.htm), the western edge of Aphrodite Terra looks a _little_ like Middle Earth. If only, y’know, it had an ocean around it. And a breathable atmosphere. And a biosphere. And wasn’t on a completely different planet… ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785/20 "2003-09-07T01:51:56Z")
So it’s a where, not a when? (IANATF I Am not A Tolkien Fan) From watching the movies I never got a clear sense of if “middle” was refering to geography or time period. However, based on the fact that the characters refer to it as middle, I figured it has to be geography, since how the hell would they know it was the middle of their history? They don’t seem as arogant as modernists were 😃 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-middle-earth/199785.md?page=2)