# Where is the demarcator between mainstream and softcore porn **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 28, 2006, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486 "2006-06-28T13:18:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/1 "2006-06-28T13:18:56Z")
I think if most people were asked "What’s the difference between a mainstream movie and a softcore porn film, they’d respond, “Softcore porn is whatever Cinemax is showing between 11 p.m. and 12:30 a.m.” But we as Dopers must hew to a higher standard, i.e., we must examine the actual content of a film to decide if it’s softcore porn or mainstream. What is the deciding factor? Is it the presence of nudity? If so, we must define every R rated film where an actress doffs a bra as softcore porn, as Halle Berry famously did in _Swordfish_. Is it the AMOUNT or TYPE of nudity? If so, what amount or what type? Perhaps it is not the nudity, it’s the sex. Of course, there have been an awful lot of mainstream films that have featured strong sex scenes:\* Body Heat, Cat People, Don’t Look Back, Betty Blue, Requiem For A Dream,\* etc. Very long list, there. Is it the amount or type of sex? If so, what amount or what type? Is it the nature of the plot, that is, is it that the plot exists only to further the sex and nudity? If so, what are we to make of the occasional sex and nudity drenched film that actually has a working plot, such as _Flesh Gordon_ or _The Key To Sex_? And what are we to make of mainstream films that feature relatively little sex and nudity but have plots that make little or no sense, like\* Sliver\* and _Body of Evidence_? Or even unfunny mainstream films that are supposed to be sexy fun, like _Exit to Eden_? Of course, some my cry, “I know it when I see it,” but I am expecting a far higher standard of logic and reason from Dopers than the inanities that escape the mouths of Supreme Court justices. So, have at it. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/2 "2006-06-28T13:28:20Z")
If you see a functional erect phallus penetrating any orifice erotically/sexually, that’s generally the demarker that prevents it from being soft porn. ---
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/3 "2006-06-28T13:34:01Z")
You probably won’t see a money shot in soft porn - instead they go to a close-up of the guy when finishing. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/4 "2006-06-28T13:34:15Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > If you see a functional erect phallus penetrating any orifice erotically/sexually, that’s generally the demarker that prevents it from being soft porn. That’s the demarcator between hardcore and softcore, not mainstream and hardcore. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/5 "2006-06-28T13:35:21Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > That’s the demarcator between hardcore and softcore, not mainstream and hardcore. er, make that “not mainstream and softcore.” ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/6 "2006-06-28T13:52:44Z")
I think the line between mainstream and hardcore pornography has been blurred since at least the early 1990s. There’s very little of the formerly “hardcore” that doesn’t make regular appearances into the mainstream. Homosexual porn barely bats an eye. Even in non-pornographic sexual and dating circles, fellatio and cunnilingus are touted as “safer sex” alternatives to vaginal and anal sex. Where was this acceptance when I was a teen? If we look at it from the viewpoint of what’s still taboo? I suppose S&M, rape fantasies, dom/sub, gang banging, orgies, animal acts, pederasty and sex acts with overt scatological themes (bukakke, golden showers, analingus and similar) are all still considered more hardcore than “mainstream,” but YMMV. If I had to suggest a common theme to all those it would be, “the degree of domination and humiliation.” ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/7 "2006-06-28T13:57:18Z")
I would almost have to say that it’s the talent involved. Mainstream, known actors= mainstream movie. Unknown/ porn actors or models= softcore porn. Of course, there’s also a lot to be said about production values and target marketing. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/8 "2006-06-28T14:00:36Z")
The short answer is penetration. The long answer is probably along the lines of the difference between simulated acts and real acts. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/9 "2006-06-28T14:03:02Z")
I misunderstood the question. Between “mainstream” and softecore porn, I don’t think there is a difference other than perhaps the production qualities. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/10 "2006-06-28T14:15:29Z")
While you may not like the idea of the Supreme Court’s getting it right, in this case I think they nailed it in one. Perception is going to be the deciding factor. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/11 "2006-06-28T14:30:55Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Of course, there have been an awful lot of mainstream films that have featured strong sex scenes:\* Body Heat, Cat People, Don’t Look Back\* I must have missed the steamy scenes between [Bob Dylan](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061589/) and Joan Baez. Or was it with Donovan? I think you meant _Don’t Look Now_. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/12 "2006-06-28T14:33:22Z")
Mainstream is what **you** watch. Softcore is what **I** , obviously, _do not watch_! Unless, of course, somebody _sees me…_ ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/13 "2006-06-28T14:34:02Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I misunderstood the question. Between “mainstream” and softecore porn, I don’t think there is a difference other than perhaps the production qualities. No, you and I were right: the demarcator between mainstream and softcore is penetration. No matter how much the acceptance of some hardcore acts have become in mainstream pornography in the last 15+plus years, the one thing that hasn’t changed is showing an erect penis (and especially the act of penetration) in softcore porn is still a no-no. Once you do, it’s no longer softcore. This goes for pin-up magazines, videos, games, romance novels, erotica, etc. It’s similar to the demarcation between a G rated movie and a PG-rated. Show one mangled dead body, flash a boob, say “shit” or “fuck” once, and that will make it a PG movie. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/14 "2006-06-28T14:38:08Z")
Umberto Eco had a good definition, though it worked better in the pre-VCR era. If too much time passes between sex scenes, then you are watching a pornographic movie (hard or soft). Meaning that in a mainstream film, the viewer is focusing on the plot, in which there may be occasional sex scenes. In a pornographic film, the purpose _is_ the sex scenes, and everything else is just filler that serves no purpose other than to build up frustration in the viewer who is waiting for the next sex scene. The corollary is that depending on the person, any film can be pornographic. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/15 "2006-06-28T14:48:19Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > No, you and I were right: the demarcator between mainstream and softcore is penetration. No matter how much the acceptance of some hardcore acts have become in mainstream pornography in the last 15+plus years, the one thing that hasn’t changed is showing an erect penis (and especially the act of penetration) in softcore porn is still a no-no. You’re misreading the OP: > [@OP](#): > > I think if most people were asked "What’s the difference between a **mainstream movie** and a softcore porn film, they’d respond, “Softcore porn is whatever Cinemax is showing between 11 p.m. and 12:30 a.m.” > > But we as Dopers must hew to a higher standard, i.e., we must examine the actual content of a film to decide if it’s softcore porn or mainstream. EC is asking about what differentiates a mainstream commercial movie from a softcore porn film, not what differentiates softcore from mainstream hardcore porn. Yes, penetration is the dividing line between softcore and hardcore, but that’s not the question. > [@Askia](#): > > It’s similar to the demarcation between a G rated movie and a PG-rated. Show one mangled dead body, flash a boob, say “shit” or “fuck” once, and that will make it a PG movie. Actually I think “fuck” still gets an automatic R, or at least a PG-13. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/16 "2006-06-28T14:52:41Z")
> [@Sublight](#): > > The corollary is that depending on the person, any film can be pornographic. “When correctly viewed, _Everything_ is lewd!”–Tom Lehrer ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/17 "2006-06-28T15:05:45Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Actually I think “fuck” still gets an automatic R, or at least a PG-13. There aren’t many “rules” of the MPAA that define rigid lines of what makes a movie what rating, but one is that one non-sexual use of the word “fuck” is an automatic PG-13, and more such uses pushes the rating to R. One sexual use, automatic R. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/18 "2006-06-28T15:27:23Z")
OOOoooOOOOOh. Mainstream _movie._ Not mainstream \* porno\* movie. I gotcha.Thanks, **Otto.** Scratches chin. Well, NOW my answer is: the only differences that count are the erotic intent of the movie makers and what **Diogenes** said about production values earlier, which in a studio-backed mainstream movie will be a lot higher, generally. Probably the most pornographic mainstream movie I’ve seen is [L’Amant](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101316), and visually speaking, the major differences between it and watching the average _Red Shoe Diaries_ is that it was shot with cinematic artistic concerns and was the only softcore movie I’ve seen since Sarita Choudhury in _Kama Sutra_ that actually made my dick hard. There’s a few movies on the art house circuit that explore sensuality and erotica, but I wouldn’t call it softcore porn (if it’s good) because there’s still a preference of good acting and story over the prerequisite nudity and sex. If the concerns are reversed, and nudity and sex is clearly preferred to acting, it’s porn. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/19 "2006-06-28T15:43:58Z")
It’s a sliding scale of several subjective factors – In softcore, nudity is more frequent and less organic to the plot/actions of the characters. Nudity/sex scenes tend to arrest the forward movement of the story rather than advance it. In a mainstream movie, nudity/sex scenes help move the story and character development forward. In softcore, actors appearing in nude scenes are ones who frequently appear in similar types of nude scenes in other movies. Quality/Intent - In softcore, the artistic (acting/writing/direction/dialogue) and technical quality is poorer on the basis of less effort rather than failed effort. Marketing - is the movie intended for mainstream release in theatres or is it directed at the straight-to-video market Soundtrack - are actual popular works licensed or a real soundtrack composer hired or is the music chosen for its appropriateness to the action. In softcore, the music is often public domain or generic. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486/20 "2006-06-28T18:38:50Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > I would almost have to say that it’s the talent involved. Mainstream, known actors= mainstream movie. Unknown/ porn actors or models= softcore porn. > > Of course, there’s also a lot to be said about production values and target marketing. Actually, the thing is, this thread was inspired by the thread about how many well-known actors had done softcore (a surprising number of them have). Or they’ve done movies that some would call mainstream but which involved an awful lot of running around nekkid and having sex. Frex, Kari Wuhrer (best known for “Sliders” and “General Hospital”). Then look at Jennifer Connolly in “The Hot Spot.” Look at Sherilyn Fenn in a LOT of her movies. Are these softcore porn? Well, probably not. Do they have strong sex scenes and nudity as part of their appeal? Definitely. There are some companies that produce films that are definitely softcore in intent nd content – Mystique and Seduction Cinema, to name two. But some companies that distribute what are clearly softcore films also distribute B-movies and indies that clearly aren’t softcore, like [Concorde-New Horizon Films.](http://www.imdb.com/company/co0083952/). I mean, “Dinocroc” was a sci-fi channel creature feature, and “Attack of the 60-Foot Centerfolds” was softcore alrighty, and the better film of the two I might add. So I guess my point is, there’s no demarcator in terms of content. There’s no line you can point to that clearly delineates mainstream from hardcore, though to be sure if you compare only the output of Seduction Cinema with the output of Merchant-Ivory, you would probably be able to detect a distinct difference between the two. It’s just that there’s a clear continuum of movies that fills the gap between them. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-demarcator-between-mainstream-and-softcore-porn/362486.md?page=2)