# Where is the line between go-getter and accomplice to toxic workplace culture? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 21, 2021, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-between-go-getter-and-accomplice-to-toxic-workplace-culture/938331 "2021-03-21T02:00:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-between-go-getter-and-accomplice-to-toxic-workplace-culture/938331/21 "2021-03-22T17:35:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The villain is the boss who didn’t say, after the first month “Fuck off, I’m not signing off on 15 hours of overtime. Give it a rest, Pointdexter.” That’s your problem…assuming anyone is getting paid for all this overtime. In these kinds of situations, no one is getting paid. It’s all about proving what a good “team player” you are. It’s stupid, because it has f\*ck all with productivity. Wish I lived in a country with decent labor laws! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-between-go-getter-and-accomplice-to-toxic-workplace-culture/938331/22 "2021-03-22T17:36:44Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > That’s your problem…assuming anyone is getting paid for all this overtime. In these kinds of situations, no one is getting paid. That would be _highly_ illegal in my country. And also just not done in my current multinational company. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-between-go-getter-and-accomplice-to-toxic-workplace-culture/938331/23 "2021-03-22T17:42:12Z")
I really could not disagree more. Hiring and keeping good talent is not just luck, be that a reupholster, an athlete, a physician, an actor, a salesperson, or an engineer. Analyzing costs, evaluating the quality of the work, appreciating how much production of what quality is reasonable to expect over what period of time, organizing workflow … none of that requires the specific skill of those being managed. My office manager started as a receptionist in our office decades ago. She was a good receptionist. Now she manages our two sites within a larger organization. She hires nurses, medical aides, and receptionists. She manages the schedules and work flows for them all and a team of five doctors. She deals with accounting, with purchasing, and with patient satisfaction. She is an excellent manager of the team. She is not any of those other jobs and our best hardest working nurse would be an awful manager. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-between-go-getter-and-accomplice-to-toxic-workplace-culture/938331/24 "2021-03-22T17:55:59Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I don’t equate long hours with dynamism in the slightest. I do, but that’s based on my very anecdotal and limited experience. I’m currently at a place that is much more “balanced.” Work gets done and done well, but it is at a more stately and sedate pace. That’s what I’ve observed as well when I have worked with other companies that similar cultures. To be clear, I like working where I’m working now; it has a good culture and atmosphere. Still, the job that I’d still count as my favorite job ever was pretty much the opposite. We regularly worked evenings and weekends. (There was no overtime. There, theoretically was comp time - but no one was taking it.) It was one of those places where they fed us and entertained us so that we wouldn’t have to leave and could just keep on working. And the energy in the place was amazing and the company was able to accomplish much more, much faster than my current employer could do. To me, neither place’s culture was objectively better or worse. But subjectively, some people may prefer one or the other and management/leadership needs to figure out what it wants and aim in that direction. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-between-go-getter-and-accomplice-to-toxic-workplace-culture/938331/25 "2021-03-22T18:04:18Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > I do, but that’s based on my very anecdotal and limited experience. So’s my disagreement. Well, that and the [science](http://ftp.iza.org/dp8129.pdf). But that’s secondary to my experience. My current place of work is the most dynamic (and financially successful) place I’ve ever worked, waaay more than the early tech startups with the pool tables and the PS2s and the espresso machines and the sidelong looks when I left at 5, 20 years ago. Of course, those companies don’t even exist anymore, they burned out themselves - and the employees who stayed - 15 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-between-go-getter-and-accomplice-to-toxic-workplace-culture/938331/26 "2021-03-22T18:10:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You don’t see a 55-hour work week as toxic? Not in and of itself. Very much depends on the company culture and the context – the type of work, whether increased time spent translated directly to increased productivity (as the OP said it did) and hence profitability, whether it was truly voluntary or there was sub rosa expectation that this would be done, and other factors. The way the story was presented, I didn’t see it as toxic. The point that others have raised is quite valid, it’s not always the case that a good worker makes a good manager (I myself am an example of this not being always true). The older worker’s maturity and life experience might have made them a better manager. The OP thought that the boss was afraid of losing the younger worker if his efforts were not rewarded. A promotion on this basis might not work out as he wished, but we have no information about that. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-between-go-getter-and-accomplice-to-toxic-workplace-culture/938331/27 "2021-03-22T18:23:52Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > One thing to note - around here, when the leadership at startups that worked 60+ hours a week started to get married and have kids, the culture of a lot of those places changed. Interesting point. The leadership at this company is all under 40 and only a couple C-level people have kids. It fits. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-between-go-getter-and-accomplice-to-toxic-workplace-culture/938331/28 "2021-03-23T00:11:58Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > I’m not sure I agree about managing being a different skill set than production. The worst managers I’ve had were those that only had managerial skills and didn’t understand production. I had an engineering manager argue with me once that you could change the radius of a circle without changing its circumference he was a terrible engineer before his promotion but he was good at “people skills” so he was selected over better engineers due to having a more managerial skill set. When I promote managers I generally want the best person at their current job who is willing to learn a new skill set. Which I think is where people should be doing their bosses job is coming from those people are trying to learn the next skill set before its relevant to them so they’ll have a shorter learning curve. Ah, the Peter Principle at work. The best manager is good at managing and the technology, but would you rather promote the stereotyped techie who is brilliant but doesn’t want to talk to anyone else or the not so brilliant guy who is a natural team leader and makes teams work? And as time goes on even the best technically skilled manager is going to be spending time on management and is going to lose the nitty gritty details. A good bullshit detector and trusting your reports is far more important than just technical skills. All the management classes I’ve taken have said that the number one mistake by a new manager is not letting go of the technical work. This is common because the manager is often the best at the technical work and can’t stand their reports not doing it as well as they do. And it is the rare second level manager who is up on the technology at a detailed level at all. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-between-go-getter-and-accomplice-to-toxic-workplace-culture/938331/29 "2021-03-24T02:09:57Z")
In the example you provided, the workplace is “toxic” because the boss is handing out promotions as an incentive to not leave instead of based on who is demonstrating the values. experience and leadership the company wants for their managers. Basically what you will get are managers with the least desire to be there managing people who will likely have their desire to be there reduced as well. It’s also toxic because of the ageism. It sends a message that “experience isn’t valued here” and that there basically is no future at this place in 10+ years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-between-go-getter-and-accomplice-to-toxic-workplace-culture/938331.md?page=1)