# Where is the line drawn between oppresive cultural norms and taking resposibility for yourself? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471 "2013-12-04T13:28:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Oedipus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Oedipus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oedipus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/41 "2013-12-04T19:19:26Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > At what point do people admit that offering a woman a starting salary 88% of the salary you’d offer an otherwise identical man is really fucked up, and a visible sign of a society in serious need of adjusting? At what point do you draw the line between personal responsibility, and an oppressive, unfair culture that can be shown and proven? Where’d you pull 88% from? All the studies I see show that women make around 4 cents less on the dollar than men when adjusted for all the variables. That’s insanely less than 27 cents. Granted, it’s still a difference, but it’s a lot easier to chalk up 4 cents to men being really strong negotiators than a 27 cent difference is. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/42 "2013-12-04T19:20:58Z")
> [@Oedipus](#): > > That’s insanely less than 27 cents. He’s talking about starting salaries, which may be a different figure from the more popular 24- or 27-cent figure. And it’s almost half, which is not “insanely less.” ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/43 "2013-12-04T19:24:32Z")
> [@Oedipus](#): > > I see blaming the glass ceiling for lack of promotion or complaining of all the professors who tell you to not do STEM because “you’ll never get in” or “its a boys club” to be really weak. Maybe it’s not the entire patriarchy plotting against your dreams. Maybe you should look at individual flaws before you blame institutions for everything wrong in your life. Yes, there are problems and inequalities, but, except for a very very privileged few, life fucks everyone over without prejudice… There’s never been a time in US history when people in privileged positions weren’t saying this exact thing to people in less privileged positions. It’s a sermon that has been with us for generations. It was lame in 1850. It was lame in 1920. And it’s lame now. Sure, an individual should always assess their own weaknesses and shortcomings before laying blame on society. That’s so facile that it’s really not worth saying. And it also belittles well-justified anger. Hell yes I will get angry when I learn that my resume is X% more likely to be tossed in the garbage simply because I don’t have a “white” sounding name. I will use that anger to motivate me to work harder, but this doesn’t mean I’m not going to complain about it. I also don’t need to hear tongue-clucking from people who are lucky enough to not be discriminated in this way, even if they deal with discrimination that I don’t have to deal with. If they don’t want to complain about the injustices that affect them, that’s fine. But quiet, easygoing people never change the status qo. The complainers and the rabble-rousers do. The truth of the matter is that as long as discrimination happens, people will always be justified in playing the blame game. You want the blame game to stop? Do something about the discrimination. As long as we’re dishing out simplistic wisdom and all. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/44 "2013-12-04T19:25:56Z")
I pulled the 88% from the first article I linked - women were offered $26,507.94, men were offered $30,238.10. The reason I specifically referenced that number is there’s no weaseling away from it, no discussion of “Well, women just take less paying jobs”, “Women just negotiate less”, etc. Same resume, different name, women got shafted just for being women. Given this, doesn’t it also seem like women are much _better_ negotiators if they can make up that remaining 8% difference? Men must just suck at interpersonal skills. ---
**Author:** ![Oedipus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Oedipus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oedipus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/45 "2013-12-04T19:26:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > He’s talking about starting salaries, which may be a different figure from the more popular 24- or 27-cent figure. And it’s almost half, which is not “insanely less.” Would either of you mind linking to something looking at starting salaries rather than just salaries as a whole? Also…maybe I’m misunderstanding something…I was saying that 4 cents is insanely less than 27…it’s almost one seventh of 27… ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/46 "2013-12-04T19:29:55Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > I pulled the 88% from the first article I linked - women were offered $26,507.94, men were offered $30,238.10. The reason I specifically referenced that number is there’s no weaseling away from it, no discussion of “Well, women just take less paying jobs”, “Women just negotiate less”, etc. Same resume, different name, women got shafted just for being women. It’s weird to me that they’re hiring these people based only on resume. Is that common? ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/47 "2013-12-04T19:30:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes it is, but that does not mean it is ‘right’ nor does it mean it is the best for humanity, just the best for the local circle of humanity at the time. > Over time it will shift, but to old saying holds, do you want to pay a little now (and let them in) or pay a lot latter (and be excluded next). Yes, but tribalism is fundamental to human existence. If it’s a societal view, it’ll change as we teach youngsters that belonging matters less than all of humanity. But if it’s just how our brains are wired, we have to wait for evolution to catch up. We are already doing some of that sort of teaching. Either way, the minimum amount of time will probably be several generations as the teaching sinks into the newer generations and the old people die out. Them dang boomers are ruining it for all of us. _Still._ 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/48 "2013-12-04T19:38:29Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > It’s weird to me that they’re hiring these people based only on resume. Is that common? They’re being measured on “hire-ability” - and I imagine that basically determines who gets to be interviewed, as I’m sure most places get way more resumes then they have open positions - and offered starting salary. I can’t imagine a place _not_ having a starting salary in mind before the actual interview, and in every job I’ve ever interviewed for myself (I’m 25), I’ve been told a likely starting salary offer before the interview. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/49 "2013-12-04T19:46:45Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > They’re being measured on “hire-ability” - and I imagine that basically determines who gets to be interviewed, as I’m sure most places get way more resumes then they have open positions - and offered starting salary. I can’t imagine a place _not_ having a starting salary in mind before the actual interview, and in every job I’ve ever interviewed for myself (I’m 25), I’ve been told a likely starting salary offer before the interview. I live in a field where starting salaries are the stuff of public knowledge. I know exactly what my male and female colleagues make (it’s the same) becuase it’s lockstep seniority. So the whole thing is weird to me. How could any employer make an informed decision about “hire-ability” or “salary” or “mentorability” based on a resume? Although, I would be willing to believe that, if we believe it to be commonly held that men are better negotiators, an employer might start higher to save time and be competitive. I don’t know. I also assume the study controlled for the various employers (i.e., while my employer and all the other employers in town pay lockstep publicly avaliable wages, they don’t pay the same wages as each other). ---
**Author:** ![Oedipus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Oedipus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oedipus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/50 "2013-12-04T19:47:01Z")
I’m still wary of that study because of how women and men faculty alike put very similar numbers for both candidates. I would understand the men angle, but to think that not just one, but the large majority of the female faculty at the university would do the same thing to someone of their own gender would lead to believe that there’s more than just point-blank sexism involved in this. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/51 "2013-12-04T19:53:54Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > I live in a field … Surely you can afford a trailer or something. Or are women even more grossly underpaid where you are? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/52 "2013-12-04T19:57:29Z")
> [@Oedipus](#): > > I’m still wary of that study because of how women and men faculty alike put very similar numbers for both candidates. I would understand the men angle, but to think that not just one, but the large majority of the female faculty at the university would do the same thing to someone of their own gender would lead to believe that there’s more than just point-blank sexism involved in this. That just gives credence to the notion of some sort of subconscious “institutional” sexism of perception. It’s a slippery concept, but, in many respects, it’s easier to believe than a massive, intentional, penis-wielding conspiracy. Especially for those of us who were not greated with a secret handshake, access to the “white males only” social gatherings, and instantly promoted, leaving women and minorities in the dust (either that, or maybe they think I’m gay). > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Surely you can afford a trailer or something. Or are women even more grossly underpaid where you are? 😃 I like the fresh air. Going to the bathroom with company, however, is awkward. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/53 "2013-12-04T20:15:14Z")
Sexism is not rational and everyone can be infected by it. The woman that gives another woman a harder time in a job interview is the same woman who brags about her lack of female friends because women are catty, back-stabbing bitches. She’s the same woman who favors her son over her daughter just because, and she’s the same woman who hates on anyone with a vagina who happens to makes eye contact with “her” man. She’s no different from the self-loathing Jew or the Uncle Tom black person. When you’re a minority in a position of power, there’s extra pressure to behave like everyone else. If you’re the only woman on an interview panel, you know that everyone’s going to be looking at your selections, ready to raise an eyebrow lest you make a choice that goes against the pack. A year ago I was on an interview panel and upon hearing about this, a male coworker raised his fist in the air and shouted “girl power” in a mocking way, as if to suggest I was going to automatically choose a female candidate. Turns out he was one of the candidates that we interviewed. He didn’t get the job–the woman did. Maybe if he had bothered to complete the application correctly that wouldn’t have been the case. Girl power, indeed. Jackass. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/54 "2013-12-04T20:34:58Z")
“Following instructions power!” doesn’t roll off the tongue the same way. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/55 "2013-12-04T20:42:50Z")
> [@Oedipus](#): > > But that’s the thing. The oft-touted “27 cents less on the dollar” than men number is based on raw median income between men and women. Adjusted for career, experience, hours worked, etc. etc. that comes down to around 4 cents, IIRC. That can be chalked up to women’s **supposedly** inferior negotiating skills but is otherwise unexplained. That’s when the NOW paragraph I posted comes in. They blame the inequality on societal “steering” which is where I ask the question, “At what point do you draw the line between oppressive cultural steering and taking responsibility for your own success and your own salary?” I think the point is when you are talking about a society-wide phenomenon, rather than an individual phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/56 "2013-12-04T20:46:44Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Sexism is not rational and everyone can be infected by it. The woman that gives another woman a harder time in a job interview is the same woman who brags about her lack of female friends because women are catty, back-stabbing bitches. She’s the same woman who favors her son over her daughter just because, and she’s the same woman who hates on anyone with a vagina who happens to makes eye contact with “her” man. > > She’s no different from the self-loathing Jew or the Uncle Tom black person. > > When you’re a minority in a position of power, there’s extra pressure to behave like everyone else. If you’re the only woman on an interview panel, you know that everyone’s going to be looking at your selections, ready to raise an eyebrow lest you make a choice that goes against the pack. A year ago I was on an interview panel and upon hearing about this, a male coworker raised his fist in the air and shouted “girl power” in a mocking way, as if to suggest I was going to automatically choose a female candidate. Turns out he was one of the candidates that we interviewed. He didn’t get the job–the woman did. Maybe if he had bothered to complete the application correctly that wouldn’t have been the case. Girl power, indeed. Jackass. Wise words. There’s a bestseller out right now that talks about a lot of these issues in a style many people might find accessible: Lean In, by Sheryl Sandberg. It addresses why there are so few women as CEOs, what women do to weed themselves out, sexism, self-doubt and guilt, cultural norms, self-limiting behavior, etc. It’s a really good, short read. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/57 "2013-12-04T20:57:46Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Sexism is not rational and everyone can be infected by it. The woman that gives another woman a harder time in a job interview is the same woman who brags about her lack of female friends because women are catty, back-stabbing bitches. She’s the same woman who favors her son over her daughter just because, and she’s the same woman who hates on anyone with a vagina who happens to makes eye contact with “her” man. > > She’s no different from the self-loathing Jew or the Uncle Tom black person. > > When you’re a minority in a position of power, there’s extra pressure to behave like everyone else. If you’re the only woman on an interview panel, you know that everyone’s going to be looking at your selections, ready to raise an eyebrow lest you make a choice that goes against the pack. A year ago I was on an interview panel and upon hearing about this, a male coworker raised his fist in the air and shouted “girl power” in a mocking way, as if to suggest I was going to automatically choose a female candidate. Turns out he was one of the candidates that we interviewed. He didn’t get the job–the woman did. Maybe if he had bothered to complete the application correctly that wouldn’t have been the case. Girl power, indeed. Jackass. Maybe it’s different in CA and in high tech, but I’ve done a lot of hiring and had lots of women who were part of the hiring team, and I never scrutinized a woman’s choice any different from a man’s. Not to say the phenomenon you describe doesn’t exist at all, but I don’t see it here in Silicon Valley. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/58 "2013-12-04T20:59:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Maybe it’s different in CA and in high tech, but I’ve done a lot of hiring and had lots of women who were part of the hiring team, and I never scrutinized a woman’s choice any different from a man’s. Not to say the phenomenon you describe doesn’t exist at all, but I don’t see it here in Silicon Valley. Yeah, you should read Sheryl Sandberg’s book. ---
**Author:** ![Amara\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7993a0/32.png) [@Amara\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amara_1)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/59 "2013-12-04T21:59:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Maybe it’s different in CA and in high tech, but I’ve done a lot of hiring and had lots of women who were part of the hiring team, and I never scrutinized a woman’s choice any different from a man’s. Not to say the phenomenon you describe doesn’t exist at all, but I don’t see it here in Silicon Valley. I’d disagree with this. In my experience, it has varied from almost non-existent to a pretty large factor depending on the culture of the company/department or even hiring group. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471/60 "2013-12-04T22:16:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Maybe it’s different in CA and in high tech, but I’ve done a lot of hiring and had lots of women who were part of the hiring team, and I never scrutinized a woman’s choice any different from a man’s. Not to say the phenomenon you describe doesn’t exist at all, but I don’t see it here in Silicon Valley. Where I work, you’re lucky if you can get one woman on your interview panel, let alone “lots”. The pressure to be like one of the guys lessens a lot when you aren’t the only woman in the group. I had a boss a couple of years ago who was black, who was fond of telling me I had to work twice as hard as everyone if I expected to get any respect as a double-minority. His words were true, but I still didn’t want to hear them coming out of HIS mouth. Why would I be happy knowing that my boss is holding me to a special standard so as to protect the dignity and reputation of the entire negro race? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-line-drawn-between-oppresive-cultural-norms-and-taking-resposibility-for-yourself/675471.md?page=4)