# Where is the Near East? \[changed title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 30, 2003, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191 "2003-03-30T07:29:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Trafalgar\_Laura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trafalgar_laura/32/2907_2.png) [@Trafalgar\_Laura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trafalgar_Laura)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2003, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/1 "2003-03-30T07:29:24Z")
I may have been asleep in class the day they discussed this, but can anybody tell me where the heck the Near East is located? I am pretty sure I understand where the Middle East is, and I think I have a handle on the Far East. So, where exactly would one find the Near East? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![MannyL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MannyL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MannyL)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2003, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/2 "2003-03-30T11:22:19Z")
Well I’m in New Jersey so your title caught my eye. I have no idea what Near East is considered but popping that term into google got some links. This one seems to answer your question [http://www.state.gov/p/nea/](http://www.state.gov/p/nea/) ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2003, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/3 "2003-03-30T11:47:52Z")
The areas are not precisely defined and overlap somewhat. Near East - Northern Africa, (Morocco, Libya, Egypt, etc) and the Arabian peninsula (Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Israel, Jordan, Iraq, etc). Middle East - The Arabian peninsula, Iran, etc Far East - Southeast Asia, China, India, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Trafalgar\_Laura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trafalgar_laura/32/2907_2.png) [@Trafalgar\_Laura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trafalgar_Laura)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2003, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/4 "2003-03-30T11:56:40Z")
I take it back - I didn’t have a clue about the location of the Middle East. So Israel, Jordan, etc. are NOT in the Middle East? Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2003, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/5 "2003-03-30T11:58:15Z")
It helps everyone when threads have descriptive titles. I’ve changed the title for you. **DrMatrix** - General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2003, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/6 "2003-03-30T11:59:55Z")
Shouldn’t it say, Where is the _Near_ East? ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2003, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/7 "2003-03-30T12:01:06Z")
Well that was fast. Keep up the good work! Waiting 60 seconds… ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2003, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/8 "2003-03-30T12:11:44Z")
[Dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=near+east&r=67) regards “Near East” and “Middle East” as synonyms. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2003, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/9 "2003-03-30T12:21:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by friedo \* > \*\*The areas are not precisely defined and overlap somewhat. > > Near East - Northern Africa, (Morocco, Libya, Egypt, etc) and the Arabian peninsula (Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Israel, Jordan, Iraq, etc). > > Middle East - The Arabian peninsula, Iran, etc > > Far East - Southeast Asia, China, India, etc. \*\* No. Near East is a somewhat out of use term, largely was synonymous in usage with the Middle East but tended to include Muslim Asia. Some usages had it including North Africa, some not. Middle East suffers from the same imprecision, although habit now is often to exclude North Africa (except Egypt, depending on the writer / institution), include Iran but exclude Turkey, Pakistan. Israel… well that is a political idea / decision. I usually refer to my area of interest as MENA: Middle East & North Africa. For such usages see [MENAREPORT.com](http://MENAREPORT.com) and [MENAFN.com](http://MENAFN.com) There is no precision in any of the terms, but the above is how professionals usually use them. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/10 "2003-03-30T13:07:11Z")
I think places just east of the Mediterranean (“middle of the earth”) are Near East, further is Middle East, and further still (but not as far as the New World) are Far East. The terms are ethnocentric of the Greeks, I think. Or was it the Romans? It’s interesting that today people in what Westerners call the Middle East also call it the Middle East, when from their perspective it might better be called the Center of the Universe. Likewise, we Americans think we are Westerners. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2003, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/11 "2003-03-30T14:47:26Z")
No. See my summary above. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Napier \* > \*\*I think places just east of the Mediterranean (“middle of the earth”) are Near East, further is Middle East, and further still (but not as far as the New World) are Far East. The terms are ethnocentric of the Greeks, I think. Or was it the Romans? > It’s interesting that today people in what Westerners call the Middle East also call it the Middle East, when from their perspective it might better be called the Center of the Universe. Likewise, we Americans think we are Westerners. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2003, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/12 "2003-03-30T14:54:40Z")
The usage also changes over time. For example, I remember taking a European history class covering the period 1860 to 1914, and coming across documents from that time period that refered to the Balkans and what we now call Turkey as the “Near East.” The “Middle East” by that usage started south of Turkey. Clearly a Eurocentric view, since the “Near East” by that usage was the Ottoman Empire’s European possessions and the seat of the Empire itself (the “sick man of Europe”). ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/13 "2003-03-30T15:27:56Z")
Quite true, answering the question in the end becomes difficult without becoming a historiographer. Short, Near East largely has fallen out of favor in current usage, although the British tend to use it more often, and both terms are fluid and hard to pin down as different authors at different times use them differently. You might best understand the terms as applying to the Arab and Iranian Islamic core lands, with highly variable usage. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/14 "2003-03-30T23:50:27Z")
I was travelling in India once and was puzzled by an article in the local paper that referred to the ongoing troubles in “west Asia.” Took me a few seconds of puzzlement to figure out what they were talking about. It makes sense though, and is a much more neutral term than Middle East or Near East. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/15 "2003-03-31T00:18:04Z")
The old British usage had “Near East” meaning the Balkans, Turkey, and the Levant. (What’s the Levant? The eastern end of the Mediterranean. What we now call Syria, Lebanon, Israel/Palestine, and maybe Egypt.) The “Middle East” included Iran and India. Obviously, these definitions are now obsolete. Now the Balkans are part of “Eastern Europe.” The “Middle East” is Egypt, the Arabian Peninsula, the Fertile Crescent countries, and Iran. North Africa is not actually part of the Middle East, but is usually lumped in with it because Arabic-speaking. The Library of Congress and our **Collounsbury** use the convenient initalism MENA for “Middle East and North Africa.” Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh are now “South Asia.” We need to retire the term “Near East” because it’s obsolete, superfluous, and just confuses people. **Northern Piper** , I agree that “West Asia” is a good term that needs to be used more. The only hesitation I feel with it is that “Middle East” covers West Asia plus Egypt. Just saying “West Asia” alone would leave out Egypt which is usually lumped with “Middle East” even though technically a Martian visitor would expect it to be part of North Africa. The reason is Egypt’s long historical/cultural ties to West Asia being stronger than its ties to North Africa … apart from membership in the OAU … gosh, these questions are complex… ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/16 "2003-03-31T00:23:51Z")
The old British usage had “Near East” meaning the Balkans, Turkey, and the Levant. (What’s the Levant? The eastern end of the Mediterranean. What we now call Syria, Lebanon, Israel/Palestine, and maybe Egypt.) The “Middle East” included Iran and India. Obviously, these definitions are now obsolete. Now the Balkans are part of “Eastern Europe.” The “Middle East” is Egypt, the Arabian Peninsula, the Fertile Crescent countries, and Iran. North Africa is not actually part of the Middle East, but is usually lumped in with it because Arabic-speaking. The Library of Congress and our **Collounsbury** use the convenient initalism MENA for “Middle East and North Africa.” Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh are now “South Asia.” We need to retire the term “Near East” because it’s obsolete, superfluous, and just confuses people. **Northern Piper** , I agree that “West Asia” is a good term that needs to be used more. The only hesitation I feel with it is that “Middle East” covers West Asia plus Egypt. Just saying “West Asia” alone would leave out Egypt which is usually lumped with “Middle East” even though technically a Martian visitor would expect it to be part of North Africa. The reason is Egypt’s long historical/cultural ties to West Asia being stronger than its ties to North Africa … apart from membership in the OAU … gosh, these questions are complex… ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/17 "2003-03-31T00:31:00Z")
Sorry for the double post. I swear I only hit the Submit Reply button once. The server burped right at that moment. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/18 "2003-03-31T04:56:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Northern Piper \* > \*\*I was travelling in India once and was puzzled by an article in the local paper that referred to the ongoing troubles in “west Asia.” Took me a few seconds of puzzlement to figure out what they were talking about. It makes sense though, and is a much more neutral term than Middle East or Near East. \*\* We show our European bias by using “Middle East,” “Near East,” and “Far East.” [WAG]Doesn’t it go clear back to Venice and Marco Polo? Venice had been dealing with the area of the eastern Mediterranean which was, as I recall, referred to as “Asia” or “the East.” After Marco’s trip there was a need to distinguish what he found from what was already known. Hence, “Far East” since Marco went a long way and “Near East” because it was Near compared to Far. We just continue the terminology.[/WAG] ---
**Author:** ![slipster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@slipster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slipster)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/19 "2003-03-31T05:51:01Z")
As previous post stated, “Near East” and “Middle East” are regarded as synonyms. A friend who lived for many years in England advises that when people there refer to the Near East, they mean the same areas as people in the U.S. call the Middle East. He hazards the guess that Americans took to saying Middle East because they see Europe and the British Isles as being east of them, whereas the British think of Europe and the British Isles as being “here” and the Middle East as being–at least as compared to an American perspective–nearby. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191/20 "2003-03-31T06:54:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by slipster \* > \*\*As previous post stated, “Near East” and “Middle East” are regarded as synonyms. > > A friend who lived for many years in England advises that when people there refer to the Near East, they mean the same areas as people in the U.S. call the Middle East. He hazards the guess that Americans took to saying Middle East because they see Europe and the British Isles as being east of them, whereas the British think of Europe and the British Isles as being “here” and the Middle East as being–at least as compared to an American perspective–nearby. \*\* No, that is not the origin of the shift. See Jomo Mojo above for an informed response. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-near-east-changed-title/165191.md?page=2)